From: Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>
Subject: What's left over.
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 03:10:08 +0100
Message-ID: <20021031020836.E576E2C09F@lists.samba.org>
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.970.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
X-Original-Cc: linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:07:15 +1100
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: torva...@transmeta.com
Lines: 143
Hi Linus,
Here is the list of features which have are being actively
pushed, not NAK'ed, and are not in 2.5.45. There are 13 of them, as
appropriate for Halloween.
Most were submitted repeatedly *well* before the freeze. It'd
be nice for you to give feedback, and decide which ones (if any) are
still up for review.
Rusty.
--
Anyone who quotes me in their sig is an idiot. -- Rusty Russell.
From: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/rusty/2.6-not-in-yet/
Rusty's Remarkably Unreliable List of Pending 2.6 Features
[aka. Rusty's Snowball List]
A: Author
M: lkml posting describing patch
D: Download URL
S: Size of patch, number of files altered (source/config), number of new files.
X: Impact summary (only parts of patch which alter existing source files, not config/make files)
T: Diffstat of whole patch
N: Random notes
In rough order of invasiveness (number of altered source files):
In-kernel Module Loader and Unified parameter support
A: Rusty Russell
D: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/rusty/patches/Module/
S: 841 kbytes, 302/36 files altered, 22 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (598k)
N: Requires new modutils
Fbdev Rewrite
A: James Simmons
M: http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0111.3/1267.html
D: http://phoenix.infradead.org/~jsimmons/fbdev.diff.gz
S: 4852 kbytes, 168/29 files altered, 124 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (182k)
Linux Trace Toolkit (LTT)
A: Karim Yaghmour
M: http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0204.1/0832.html
M: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103491640202541&w=2
M: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103423004321305&w=2
M: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103247532007850&w=2
D: http://opersys.com/ftp/pub/LTT/ExtraPatches/patch-ltt-linux-2.5.44-vanilla-021026-2.2.bz2
S: 257 kbytes, 67/4 files altered, 9 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (90k)
statfs64
A: Peter Chubb
M: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103490436228016&w=2
D: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103490436228016&w=2
S: 42 kbytes, 53/0 files altered, 1 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (32k)
ext2/ext3 ACLs and Extended Attributes
A: Ted Ts'o
M: http://lists.insecure.org/lists/linux-kernel/2002/Oct/6787.html
B: bk://extfs.bkbits.net/extfs-2.5-update
D: http://thunk.org/tytso/linux/extfs-2.5/
S: 497 kbytes, 96/34 files altered, 34 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (167k)
ucLinux Patch (MMU-less support)
A: Greg Ungerer
M: http://lwn.net/Articles/11016/
D: http://www.uclinux.org/pub/uClinux/uClinux-2.5.x/linux-2.5.44uc3.patch.gz
S: 2218 kbytes, 25/34 files altered, 429 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (40k)
Crash Dumping (LKCD)
A: Matt Robinson, LKCD team
M: http://lists.insecure.org/lists/linux-kernel/2002/Oct/8552.html
D: http://lkcd.sourceforge.net/download/latest/
S: 18479 kbytes, 18/10 files altered, 10 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (18k)
POSIX Timer API
A: George Anzinger
M: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103553654329827&w=2
D: http://unc.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/high-res-timers/hrtimers-posix-2.5.44-1.0.patch
S: 66 kbytes, 18/2 files altered, 4 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (21k)
Hotplug CPU Removal Support
A: Rusty Russell
D: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/rusty/patches/Hotcpu/hotcpu-cpudown.patch.gz
S: 32 kbytes, 16/0 files altered, 0 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (29k)
Hires Timers
A: George Anzinger
M: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103557676007653&w=2
M: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103557677207693&w=2
M: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=linux-kernel&m=103558349714128&w=2
D: http://unc.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/high-res-timers/hrtimers-core-2.5.44-1.0.patch http://unc.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/high-res-timers/hrtimers-i386-2.5.44-1.0.patch http://unc.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/high-res-timers/hrtimers-hrposix-2.5.44-1.1.patch
S: 132 kbytes, 15/4 files altered, 10 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (44k)
N: Requires POSIX Timer API patch
EVMS
A: EVMS Team
M: http://www.uwsg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0208.0/0109.html
D: http://evms.sourceforge.net/patches/2.5.44/
S: 1101 kbytes, 7/10 files altered, 44 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (4k)
initramfs
A: Al Viro
M: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/linux/linux-kernel/2001-30/0110.html
D: ftp://ftp.math.psu.edu/pub/viro/N0-initramfs-C21
S: 16 kbytes, 5/1 files altered, 2 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (5k)
Kernel Probes
A: Vamsi Krishna S
M: lists.insecure.org/linux-kernel/2002/Aug/1299.html
D: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/rusty/patches/Misc/kprobes.patch.gz
S: 18 kbytes, 4/2 files altered, 4 new
T: Diffstat
X: Summary patch (5k)
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 03:40:09 +0100
From: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <20021031020836.E576E2C09F@lists.samba.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210301823120.1396-100000@home.transmeta.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.906.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!bofh.it!robomod
References: <20021031020836.E576E2C09F@lists.samba.org>
X-Original-Cc: linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:31:36 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>
Lines: 76
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Rusty Russell wrote:
>
> Here is the list of features which have are being actively
> pushed, not NAK'ed, and are not in 2.5.45. There are 13 of them, as
> appropriate for Halloween.
I'm unlikely to be able to merge everything by tomorrow, so I will
consider tomorrow a submission deadline to me, rather than a merge
deadline. That said, I merged everything I'm sure I want to merge today,
and the rest I simply haven't had time to look at very much.
> In-kernel Module Loader and Unified parameter support
This apparently breaks things like DRI, which I'm fairly unhappy about,
since I think 3D is important.
> Fbdev Rewrite
This one is just huge, and I have little personal judgement on it.
> Linux Trace Toolkit (LTT)
I don't know what this buys us.
> statfs64
I haven't even seen it.
> ext2/ext3 ACLs and Extended Attributes
I don't know why people still want ACL's. There were noises about them for
samba, but I'v enot heard anything since. Are vendors using this?
> ucLinux Patch (MMU-less support)
I've seen this, it looks pretty ok.
> Crash Dumping (LKCD)
This is definitely a vendor-driven thing. I don't believe it has any
relevance unless vendors actively support it.
> POSIX Timer API
I think I'll do at least the API, but there were some questions about the
config options here, I think.
> Hotplug CPU Removal Support
No objections, but very little visibility into it either.
> Hires Timers
This one is likely another "vendor push" thing.
> EVMS
Not for the feature freeze, there are some noises that imply that SuSE may
push it in their kernels.
> initramfs
I want this.
> Kernel Probes
Probably.
Linus
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
From: Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 18:31:36 -0800."
<Pine.LNX.4.44.0210301823120.1396-100000@home.transmeta.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 04:10:06 +0100
Message-ID: <20021031030143.401DA2C150@lists.samba.org>
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.632.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210301823120.1396-100000@home.transmeta.com>
X-Original-Cc: linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-Cc: Geert Uytterhoeven <ge...@linux-m68k.org>,
Russell King <r...@arm.linux.org.uk>
X-Original-Cc: Peter Chubb <pe...@chubb.wattle.id.au>, tri...@samba.org
X-Original-Cc: ty...@mit.edu
X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:00:31 +1100
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Lines: 95
In message <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210301823120.1396-100...@home.transmeta.com> you wri
te:
>
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Rusty Russell wrote:
> >
> > Here is the list of features which have are being actively
> > pushed, not NAK'ed, and are not in 2.5.45. There are 13 of them, as
> > appropriate for Halloween.
>
> I'm unlikely to be able to merge everything by tomorrow, so I will
> consider tomorrow a submission deadline to me, rather than a merge
> deadline. That said, I merged everything I'm sure I want to merge today,
> and the rest I simply haven't had time to look at very much.
>
> > In-kernel Module Loader and Unified parameter support
>
> This apparently breaks things like DRI, which I'm fairly unhappy about,
> since I think 3D is important.
Yes, the patch stubs out inter_module_*, in favor of get_symbol() &
put_symbol().
This breaks the three users: one in drivers/mtd/ and two in
drivers/char/drm/. I have a patch which fixes them (untested), or I
can simply put the inter_module_* code back in.
> > Fbdev Rewrite
>
> This one is just huge, and I have little personal judgement on it.
It's been around for a while. Geert, Russell?
> > Linux Trace Toolkit (LTT)
>
> I don't know what this buys us.
Haven't looked at it.
> > statfs64
>
> I haven't even seen it.
It's fairly old, but Peter Chubb said there was some vendor interest
for v. large devices. Peter?
> > ext2/ext3 ACLs and Extended Attributes
>
> I don't know why people still want ACL's. There were noises about them for
> samba, but I'v enot heard anything since. Are vendors using this?
SAMBA needs them, which is why serious Samba boxes use XFS. Tridge,
Ted?
> > Hotplug CPU Removal Support
>
> No objections, but very little visibility into it either.
The controls are in driverfs etc, and that's always been in flux. 8(
The rest is v. small, basically extending ksoftirqd, workqueues and
migration threads to disable them. Then it's all arch-specific.
> > Hires Timers
>
> This one is likely another "vendor push" thing.
>
> > EVMS
>
> Not for the feature freeze, there are some noises that imply that SuSE may
> push it in their kernels.
They have, IIRC. Interestingly, it was less invasive (existing source
touched) than the LVM2/DM patch you merged.
> > initramfs
>
> I want this.
Good. The big payoff is moving stuff out of the kernel, which can't
really be done in a stable series.
> > Kernel Probes
>
> Probably.
Sent.
Rusty.
--
Anyone who quotes me in their sig is an idiot. -- Rusty Russell.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:20:07 +0100
From: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210301823120.1396-100000@home.transmeta.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210302224180.20210-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.159.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210301823120.1396-100000@home.transmeta.com>
X-Original-Cc: Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
<linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>, <lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:25:46 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Lines: 41
Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > Crash Dumping (LKCD)
>
> This is definitely a vendor-driven thing. I don't believe it has any
> relevance unless vendors actively support it.
There are people within IBM in Germany, India and England, as well as
a number of companies (Intel, NEC, Hitachi, Fujitsu), as well as SGI
that are PAID to support this. In addition, Global Services at IBM
uses this as a front-line method for resolving customer problems.
If you're looking for names of people to sign up to support it
(both vendors and non-vendors), I can make that list up for you.
There are a number of us (developers, support staff, and other
interested parties) who bend over backwards, day in and day out
to make sure this stuff works and helps people, even if it isn't
kernel developers (directly -- indirectly, you get bug reports that
are sane and useful).
It's not sexy kernel stuff, but it is very important, and if you'd
like, I can have representatives from at least 10 major corporations
(Fortune 500 companies) contact you to request that this go in.
We're generating 2.5.45 patches now, and we ask that you include
the patches when they are posted.
I don't know what else to say except that people really want this
stuff and all of us in the LKCD community work really hard together
to make this project useful for everyone.
Please include this in your next snapshot.
--Matt
P.S. Copying some of the users and developers.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 16:50:07 +0100
From: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210302224180.20210-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310737170.2035-100000@home.transmeta.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.868.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!bofh.it!robomod
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210302224180.20210-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
X-Original-Cc: Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
<linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>, <lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 07:46:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Lines: 47
On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Matt D. Robinson wrote:
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > Crash Dumping (LKCD)
> >
> > This is definitely a vendor-driven thing. I don't believe it has any
> > relevance unless vendors actively support it.
>
> There are people within IBM in Germany, India and England, as well as
> a number of companies (Intel, NEC, Hitachi, Fujitsu), as well as SGI
> that are PAID to support this.
That's fine. And since they are paid to support it, they can apply the
patches.
What I'm saying by "vendor driven" is that it has no relevance for the
standard kernel, and since it has no relevance to that, then I have no
incentives to merge it. The crash dump is only useful with people who
actively look at the dumps, and I don't know _anybody_ outside of the
specialized vendors you mention who actually do that.
I will merge it when there are real users who want it - usually as a
result of having gotten used to it through a vendor who supports it. (And
by "support" I do not mean "maintain the patches", but "actively uses it"
to work out the users problems or whatever).
Horse before the cart and all that thing.
People have to realize that my kernel is not for random new features. The
stuff I consider important are things that people use on their own, or
stuff that is the base for other work. Quite often I want vendors to merge
patches _they_ care about long long before I will merge them (examples of
this are quite common, things like reiserfs and ext3 etc).
THAT is what I mean by vendor-driven. If vendors decide they really want
the patches, and I actually start seeing noises on linux-kernel or getting
requests for it being merged from _users_ rather than developers, then
that means that the vendor is on to something.
Linus
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-06!sn-xit-08!supernews.com!priapus.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed.news2me.com!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news2.dg.net.ua!carrier.kiev.ua!not-for-mail
From: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Newsgroups: lucky.linux.kernel
Subject: Re: What's left over.
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:22:04 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: unknown
Lines: 84
Sender: n...@horse.lucky.net
Approved: newsmas...@lucky.net
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310900130.20412-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com.lucky.linux.kernel>
NNTP-Posting-Host: horse.lucky.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Trace: horse.lucky.net 1036084924 69827 193.193.193.118 (31 Oct 2002 17:22:04 GMT)
X-Complaints-To: usenet@horse.lucky.net
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 17:22:04 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310737170.2035-100000@home.transmeta.com>
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
X-Comment-To: Linus Torvalds
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Linus Torvalds wrote:
|>On Wed, 30 Oct 2002, Matt D. Robinson wrote:
|>That's fine. And since they are paid to support it, they can apply the
|>patches.
Sure, but why should they have to? What technical reason is there
for not including it, Linus?
I completely don't understand your reasoning here. I use it for my
home, not for work, and that's important for me. And not everyone
can spend their evenings rolling up the next set of patches for
a distribution. Yes, vendors want it, they need it, but there are
plenty of people like me that want this in too!
We want to see this in the kernel, frankly, because it's a pain
in the butt keeping up with your kernel revisions and everything
else that goes in that changes. And I'm sure SuSE, UnitedLinux and
(hopefully) Red Hat don't want to spend their time having to roll
this stuff in each and every time you roll a new kernel.
I mean, PLEASE, Linus, what do we have to do? There are so many
interests in this stuff, and I really, truly don't get what's wrong
with putting this in the kernel?
Have you looked at it? Have you looked at how it is now structure
to be non-invasive? How it will allow other kernel developers to
generate their own dumping methods? I mean, we sent you E-mails
weeks ago, and you didn't respond to any of them with even a word
of acknowledgement of receipt.
|>What I'm saying by "vendor driven" is that it has no relevance for the
|>standard kernel, and since it has no relevance to that, then I have no
|>incentives to merge it. The crash dump is only useful with people who
|>actively look at the dumps, and I don't know _anybody_ outside of the
|>specialized vendors you mention who actually do that.
I do. Others like myself do. And not just for development
purposes. I don't like to see my system crash after installing one
of your new kernels and not be able to figure out what's wrong.
The nice thing is that LKCD there, it works, and I can just look
at the crash report instead of wishing that my console buffer
didn't just scroll off. Oh, I know, I'll just wait for it to
happen again ... yeah, like that's real intelligent.
|>I will merge it when there are real users who want it - usually as a
|>result of having gotten used to it through a vendor who supports it. (And
|>by "support" I do not mean "maintain the patches", but "actively uses it"
|>to work out the users problems or whatever).
|>
|>Horse before the cart and all that thing.
|>
|>People have to realize that my kernel is not for random new features. The
|>stuff I consider important are things that people use on their own, or
|>stuff that is the base for other work. Quite often I want vendors to merge
|>patches _they_ care about long long before I will merge them (examples of
|>this are quite common, things like reiserfs and ext3 etc).
Other vendors have merged LKCD a long time ago and use it, and
expect it to be there. And users like myself find it valuable on
their desktops, their servers, etc. I mean, there's someone using
this at Purdue that's responded to you, just another kernel user
that likes to have this stuff there automatically.
|>THAT is what I mean by vendor-driven. If vendors decide they really want
|>the patches, and I actually start seeing noises on linux-kernel or getting
|>requests for it being merged from _users_ rather than developers, then
|>that means that the vendor is on to something.
TurboLinux, MonteVista, Veritas, SuSE, and UnitedLinux have LKCD.
With the most recent changes, I think Red Hat can put LKCD in now
such that it isn't invasive to their distribution.
I think SuSE has already expressed a desire to have this in. If
you want to hear from others, I'll asked them to respond to you.
|> Linus
--Matt
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:30:17 +0100
From: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310900130.20412-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310918260.1410-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.830.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310900130.20412-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
X-Original-Cc: Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
<linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>, <lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:25:21 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Lines: 50
[ Ok, this is a really serious email. If you don't get it, don't bother
emailing me. Instead, think about it for an hour, and if you still don't
get it, ask somebody you know to explain it to you. ]
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Matt D. Robinson wrote:
>
> Sure, but why should they have to? What technical reason is there
> for not including it, Linus?
There are many:
- bloat kills:
My job is saying "NO!"
In other words: the question is never EVER "Why shouldn't it be
accepted?", but it is always "Why do we really not want to live
without this?"
- included features kill off (potentially better) projects.
There's a big "inertia" to features. It's often better to keep
features _off_ the standard kernel if they may end up being
further developed in totally new directions.
In particular when it comes to this project, I'm told about
"netdump", which doesn't try to dump to a disk, but over the net.
And quite frankly, my immediate reaction is to say "Hell, I
_never_ want the dump touching my disk, but over the network
sounds like a great idea".
To me this says "LKCD is stupid". Which means that I'm not going to apply
it, and I'm going to need some real reason to do so - ie being proven
wrong in the field.
(And don't get me wrong - I don't mind getting proven wrong. I change my
opinions the way some people change underwear. And I think that's ok).
> I completely don't understand your reasoning here.
Tough. That's YOUR problem.
Linus
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 18:50:08 +0100
From: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310918260.1410-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310941310.20412-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.455.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!eusc.inter.net!news0.de.colt.net!peernews3.colt.net!fr.colt.net!cweu!bofh.it!robomod
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310918260.1410-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
X-Original-Cc: Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
<linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>, <lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:54:50 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Lines: 94
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Linus Torvalds wrote:
|>[ Ok, this is a really serious email. If you don't get it, don't bother
|> emailing me. Instead, think about it for an hour, and if you still don't
|> get it, ask somebody you know to explain it to you. ]
Thanks for the response. I don't think I need an hour. This is
pretty simple.
|>On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Matt D. Robinson wrote:
|>>
|>> Sure, but why should they have to? What technical reason is there
|>> for not including it, Linus?
|>
|>There are many:
|>
|> - bloat kills:
|>
|> My job is saying "NO!"
|>
|> In other words: the question is never EVER "Why shouldn't it be
|> accepted?", but it is always "Why do we really not want to live
|> without this?"
This isn't bloat. If you want, it can be built as a module, and
not as part of your kernel. How can that be bloat? People who
build kernels can optionally build it in, but we're not asking
that it be turned on by default, rather, built as a module so
people can load it if they want to. We made it into a module
because 18 months ago you complained about it being bloat. We
addressed your concerns.
Some people, particularly large SSI configurations, can't live
without this. You shouldn't crash once. Crashing twice, or
more often, is inexcusable.
|> - included features kill off (potentially better) projects.
|>
|> There's a big "inertia" to features. It's often better to keep
|> features _off_ the standard kernel if they may end up being
|> further developed in totally new directions.
I can't argue against this ... to do so would mean that you don't
accept any new features for 2.5, and there are a lot of projects
like mine that need to go in, although I do understand your concerns.
|> In particular when it comes to this project, I'm told about
|> "netdump", which doesn't try to dump to a disk, but over the net.
|> And quite frankly, my immediate reaction is to say "Hell, I
|> _never_ want the dump touching my disk, but over the network
|> sounds like a great idea".
We've integrated the "netdump" capabilities as a dump method
for LKCD. It's an option for dumping, just like all the other
dump methods available to people? Want to dump to disk? Use
LKCD. Want to dump on the network? USE LKCD. What's wrong
with that?
We've created a net dump method that allows you to dump across the
network from Mohammed Abbas (modified from Ingo's netconsole dump).
It integrates into LKCD beautifully. If you want that patch with
the rest of our LKCD patches, we can include it, no problem.
|>To me this says "LKCD is stupid". Which means that I'm not going to apply
|>it, and I'm going to need some real reason to do so - ie being proven
|>wrong in the field.
Hopefully some of this changes your mind.
|>(And don't get me wrong - I don't mind getting proven wrong. I change my
|>opinions the way some people change underwear. And I think that's ok).
|>
|>> I completely don't understand your reasoning here.
|>
|>Tough. That's YOUR problem.
It is. I lose sleep because this is my problem. I lose time on
the weekends because this is my problem.
If you've _reviewed_ the LKCD patches and still have the opinions
you've mentioned above, then I'll consider this your position and
be done with it. Otherwise, please accept the code.
We'll keep doing our best to keep up with your kernels in the
meantime.
|> Linus
--Matt
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:00:12 +0100
From: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310941310.20412-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310951180.1410-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.610.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310941310.20412-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
X-Original-Cc: Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
<linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>, <lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:54:54 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Lines: 29
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Matt D. Robinson wrote:
>
> This isn't bloat. If you want, it can be built as a module, and
> not as part of your kernel. How can that be bloat?
I don't care one _whit_ about the size of the binary. I don't maintain
binaries, adn the binary can be gigabytes for all I care.
The only thing I care about is source code. So the "build it as a module
and it is not bloat" argument is a total nonsense thing as far as I'm
concerned.
Anyway, new code is always bloat to me, unless I see people using them.
Guys, why do you even bother trying to convince me? If you are right, you
will be able to convince other people, and that's the whole point of open
source.
Being "vendor-driven" is _not_ a bad thing. It only means that _I_ am not
personally convinced. I'm only one person.
Linus
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Message-ID: <3DC171FF.5000803@nortelnetworks.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:20:11 +0100
X-Sybari-Space: 00000000 00000000 00000000
From: Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.8) Gecko/20020204
X-Accept-Language: en-us
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: What's left over.
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210310918260.1410-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.61.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!opentransit.net!newsfeed.online.be!skynet.be!skynet.be!bofh.it!robomod
X-Original-Cc: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>, linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:10:07 -0500
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Lines: 33
Linus Torvalds wrote:
> In particular when it comes to this project, I'm told about
> "netdump", which doesn't try to dump to a disk, but over the net.
> And quite frankly, my immediate reaction is to say "Hell, I
> _never_ want the dump touching my disk, but over the network
> sounds like a great idea".
>
> To me this says "LKCD is stupid". Which means that I'm not going to apply
> it, and I'm going to need some real reason to do so - ie being proven
> wrong in the field.
How do you deal with netdump when your network driver is what caused the
crash?
Ideally I would like to see a dump framework that can have a number of
possible dump targets. We should be able to dump to any combination of
network, serial, disk, flash, unused ram that isn't wiped over restarts,
etc...
Chris
--
Chris Friesen | MailStop: 043/33/F10
Nortel Networks | work: (613) 765-0557
3500 Carling Avenue | fax: (613) 765-2986
Nepean, ON K2H 8E9 Canada | email: cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist
Newsgroups: fa.linux.kernel
Return-Path: <linux-kernel-owner+fa.linux.kernel=40ifi.uio...@vger.kernel.org>
Original-Message-ID: <3DC199B5.8DDE2FE1@redhat.com>
Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:59:34 -0500
From: Dave Anderson <ander...@redhat.com>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.9-e.3.genterprise i686)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
CC: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>, linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: What's left over.
Original-References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210311015380.1410-100...@penguin.transmeta.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Organization: Internet mailing list
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:01:42 GMT
Message-ID: <fa.ce61stv.1en6vhb@ifi.uio.no>
References: <fa.ob9nd6v.jkg5bc@ifi.uio.no>
Lines: 51
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> - included features kill off (potentially better) projects.
>
> There's a big "inertia" to features. It's often better to keep
> features _off_ the standard kernel if they may end up being
> further developed in totally new directions.
>
> In particular when it comes to this project, I'm told about
> "netdump", which doesn't try to dump to a disk, but over the net.
> And quite frankly, my immediate reaction is to say "Hell, I
> _never_ want the dump touching my disk, but over the network
> sounds like a great idea".
>
> To me this says "LKCD is stupid". Which means that I'm not going to apply
> it, and I'm going to need some real reason to do so - ie being proven
> wrong in the field.
>
> (And don't get me wrong - I don't mind getting proven wrong. I change my
> opinions the way some people change underwear. And I think that's ok).
It would be most unfortunate if the existance of netdump is used as a
reason to deny LKCD's inclusion, or to simply dismiss LKCD as stupid.
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Matt D. Robinson wrote:
> We want to see this in the kernel, frankly, because it's a pain
> in the butt keeping up with your kernel revisions and everything
> else that goes in that changes. And I'm sure SuSE, UnitedLinux and
> (hopefully) Red Hat don't want to spend their time having to roll
> this stuff in each and every time you roll a new kernel.
While Red Hat advocates Ingo's netdump option, we have customer
requests that are requiring us to look at LKCD disk-based dumps as an
alternative, co-existing dump mechanism. Since the two methods are not mutually
exclusive, LKCD will never kill off netdump -- nor certainly vice-versa. We're
all just looking for a better means to be able to
provide support to our customers, not to mention its value as a
development aid.
Dave Anderson
Red Hat, Inc.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!luth.se!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist
Newsgroups: fa.linux.kernel
Return-Path: <linux-kernel-owner+fa.linux.kernel=40ifi.uio...@vger.kernel.org>
Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:49:58 -0600
From: Oliver Xymoron <oxymo...@waste.org>
To: Dave Anderson <ander...@redhat.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>, linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: What's left over.
Original-Message-ID: <20021031214958.GH3620@waste.org>
Original-References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210311015380.1410-100...@penguin.transmeta.com> <3DC199B5.8DDE2...@redhat.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <3DC199B5.8DDE2FE1@redhat.com>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i
X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/)
Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Organization: Internet mailing list
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 21:51:44 GMT
Message-ID: <fa.e9c9d8v.nnq227@ifi.uio.no>
References: <fa.ce61stv.1en6vhb@ifi.uio.no>
Lines: 25
On Thu, Oct 31, 2002 at 03:59:34PM -0500, Dave Anderson wrote:
>
> > To me this says "LKCD is stupid". Which means that I'm not going to apply
> > it, and I'm going to need some real reason to do so - ie being proven
> > wrong in the field.
> >
> > (And don't get me wrong - I don't mind getting proven wrong. I change my
> > opinions the way some people change underwear. And I think that's ok).
>
> It would be most unfortunate if the existance of netdump is used as a
> reason to deny LKCD's inclusion, or to simply dismiss LKCD as stupid.
What he really wants is for Andrew or Alan or someone else he trusts
to merge it, get actual field results, and declare it useful. If
people start visibly passing around crash dump results on l-k and
solving problems with them, that'll help too. Until then all he has is
his gut feel to go on.
--
"Love the dolphins," she advised him. "Write by W.A.S.T.E.."
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 19:30:17 +0100
From: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <3DC171FF.5000803@nortelnetworks.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210311015380.1410-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.812.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!bofh.it!robomod
References: <3DC171FF.5000803@nortelnetworks.com>
X-Original-Cc: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
<linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>, <lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:22:23 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>
Lines: 34
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Chris Friesen wrote:
>
> How do you deal with netdump when your network driver is what caused the
> crash?
Actually, from a driver perspective, _the_ most likely driver to crash is
the disk driver.
That's from years of experience. The network drivers are a lot simpler,
the hardware is simpler and more standardized, and doesn't do as many
things. It's just plain _easier_ to write a network driver than a disk
driver.
Ask anybody who has done both.
But that's not the real issue. The real issue is that I have no personal
incentives to try to merge the thing, and as a result I think I'm the
wrong person to do so. I've told people over and over again that I think
this is a "vendor merge", and I'm fed up with people not _getting_ it.
Don't bother to ask me to merge the thing, that only makes me get even
more fed up with the whole discussion. This is open source, guys. Anybody
can merge it. Because I don't particularly believe in it doesn't mean that
it cannot be used. It only means that I want to see users flock to it and
show my beliefs wrong.
Linus
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 07:40:07 +0100
From: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210311015380.1410-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021101012947.23822C-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.47.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0210311015380.1410-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
X-Original-Cc: Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>, linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 01:34:51 -0500 (EST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Lines: 33
On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> On Thu, 31 Oct 2002, Chris Friesen wrote:
> >
> > How do you deal with netdump when your network driver is what caused the
> > crash?
>
> Actually, from a driver perspective, _the_ most likely driver to crash is
> the disk driver.
>
> That's from years of experience. The network drivers are a lot simpler,
> the hardware is simpler and more standardized, and doesn't do as many
> things. It's just plain _easier_ to write a network driver than a disk
> driver.
>
> Ask anybody who has done both.
From the standpoint of just the driver that's true. However, the remote
machine and all the network bits between them are a string of single
points of failure. Isn't it good that both disk and network can be
supported.
--
bill davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Subject: Re: What's left over.
From: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021101012947.23822C-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021101012947.23822C-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10)
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 14:20:05 +0100
Message-ID: <1036157204.12693.13.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.450.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news2.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!bofh.it!robomod
X-Original-Cc: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: 01 Nov 2002 13:26:44 +0000
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
Lines: 17
On Fri, 2002-11-01 at 06:34, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> From the standpoint of just the driver that's true. However, the remote
> machine and all the network bits between them are a string of single
> points of failure. Isn't it good that both disk and network can be
> supported.
My concerns are solely with things like the correctness of the disk
dumper. Its obviously a good way to do a lot more damage if it isnt done
carefully. Quite clearly your dump system wants to support multiple dump
targets so you can dump to pci battery backed ram, down the parallel
port to an analysing box etc
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!newsfeed1.ulv.nextra.no!nextra.com!uio.no!nntp.uio.no!ifi.uio.no!internet-mailinglist
Newsgroups: fa.linux.kernel
Return-Path: <linux-kernel-owner+fa.linux.kernel=40ifi.uio...@vger.kernel.org>
Original-Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:00:23 -0800
From: Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>
To: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Cc: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>, Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: What's left over.
Original-Message-ID: <20021101190022.GB17573@nic1-pc.us.oracle.com>
Original-References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021101012947.23822C-100...@gatekeeper.tmr.com> <1036157204.12693.13.ca...@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <1036157204.12693.13.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i
X-Burt-Line: Trees are cool.
Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
Precedence: bulk
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Organization: Internet mailing list
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:02:02 GMT
Message-ID: <fa.ialj0ev.bmi6qv@ifi.uio.no>
References: <fa.mr2plmv.66i4ra@ifi.uio.no>
Lines: 33
On Fri, Nov 01, 2002 at 01:26:44PM +0000, Alan Cox wrote:
> My concerns are solely with things like the correctness of the disk
> dumper. Its obviously a good way to do a lot more damage if it isnt done
> carefully.
I always liked the AIX dumper choices. You could either dump to
the swap area (and startup detects the dump and moves it to the
filesystem before swapon) or provide a dedicated dump partition. The
latter was prefered.
Either of these methods merely require the dumper to correctly
write to one disk partition. This is about as simple as you are going
to get in disk dumping.
Joel
--
"You must remember this:
A kiss is just a kiss,
A sigh is just a sigh.
The fundamental rules apply
As time goes by."
Joel Becker
Senior Member of Technical Staff
Oracle Corporation
E-mail: joel.bec...@oracle.com
Phone: (650) 506-8127
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 20:40:08 +0100
From: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <20021101190022.GB17573@nic1-pc.us.oracle.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211011107470.4673-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.622.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
References: <20021101190022.GB17573@nic1-pc.us.oracle.com>
X-Original-Cc: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
<lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:18:35 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>
Lines: 58
On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Joel Becker wrote:
>
> I always liked the AIX dumper choices. You could either dump to
> the swap area (and startup detects the dump and moves it to the
> filesystem before swapon) or provide a dedicated dump partition. The
> latter was prefered.
> Either of these methods merely require the dumper to correctly
> write to one disk partition. This is about as simple as you are going
> to get in disk dumping.
Ehh.. That was on closed hardware that was largely designed with and for
the OS.
Alan isn't worried about the "which sector do I write" kind of thing.
That's the trivial part. Alan is worried about the fact that once you know
which sector to write, actually _doing_ so is a really hard thing. You
have bounce buffers, you have exceedingly complex drivers that work
differently in PIO and DMA modes and are more likely than not the _cause_
of a number of problems etc.
And you have a situation where interrupts are not likely to work well
(because you crashed with various locks held), so the regular driver
simply isn't likely to work all that well.
And you have a situation where there are hundreds of different kinds of
device drivers for the disk.
In other words, the AIX situation isn't even _remotely_ comparable. A
large portion of the complexity in the PC stability space is in device
drivers. It's the thing I worry most about for 2.6.x stabilization, by
_far_.
And if you get these things wrong, you're quite likely to stomp on your
disk. Hard. You may be tryign to write the swap partition, but if the
driver gets confused, you just overwrote all your important data. At which
point it doesn't matter if your filesystem is journaling or not, since you
just potentially overwrote it.
In other words: it's a huge risk to play with the disk when the system is
already known to be unstable. The disk drivers tend to be one of the main
issues even when everything else is _stable_, for chrissake!
To add insult to injury, you will not be able to actually _test_ any of
the real error paths in real life. Sure, you will be able to test forced
dumps on _your_ hardware, but while that is fine in the AIX model ("we
control the hardware, and charge the user five times what it is worth"),
again that doesn't mean _squat_ in the PC hardware space.
See?
Linus
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:20:10 +0100
Message-ID: <02110112062400.01200@rigel>
From: "Steven King" <sxk...@qwest.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: What's left over.
X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.2]
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211011107470.4673-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211011107470.4673-100000@penguin.transmeta.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.147.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news2.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!bofh.it!robomod
X-Original-Cc: "Alan Cox" <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
"Bill Davidsen" <david...@tmr.com>,
"Chris Friesen" <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
"Rusty Russell" <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
"Linux Kernel Mailing List" <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:06:24 -0800
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: "Linus Torvalds" <torva...@transmeta.com>,
"Joel Becker" <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>
Lines: 17
On Friday 01 November 2002 11:18 am, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> To add insult to injury, you will not be able to actually _test_ any of
> the real error paths in real life. Sure, you will be able to test forced
> dumps on _your_ hardware, but while that is fine in the AIX model ("we
> control the hardware, and charge the user five times what it is worth"),
> again that doesn't mean _squat_ in the PC hardware space.
On the other hand, ISC's system 5 r3 ran on commodity x86 hardware and the
crash dumper worked on the various disk hardware I had occasion to use it on
(mfm, scsi, ide), although one did need to make sure swap was larger than ram
or bad things would happen. 8-{.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 06:30:05 +0100
From: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
Subject: Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <02110112062400.01200@rigel>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021102000343.29692C-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.592.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!canoe.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!wn13feed!wn11feed!worldnet.att.net!208.49.253.98!newsfeed.news2me.com!bofh.it!robomod
References: <02110112062400.01200@rigel>
X-Original-Cc: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>,
Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 00:17:07 -0500 (EST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Steven King <sxk...@qwest.net>
Lines: 34
On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Steven King wrote:
> On Friday 01 November 2002 11:18 am, Linus Torvalds wrote:
>
> > To add insult to injury, you will not be able to actually _test_ any of
> > the real error paths in real life. Sure, you will be able to test forced
> > dumps on _your_ hardware, but while that is fine in the AIX model ("we
> > control the hardware, and charge the user five times what it is worth"),
> > again that doesn't mean _squat_ in the PC hardware space.
>
> On the other hand, ISC's system 5 r3 ran on commodity x86 hardware and the
> crash dumper worked on the various disk hardware I had occasion to use it on
> (mfm, scsi, ide), although one did need to make sure swap was larger than ram
> or bad things would happen. 8-{.
The thing is that Solaris, AIX, and ISC are written by commercial
companies, they realize that customers need to be able to debug systems
which don't have a screen, a serial printer, etc. They do have disk.
I was hoping Alan would push Redhat to put this in their Linux so we
could resolve some of the ongoing problems which don't write an oops to a
log, but I guess none of the developers has to actually support production
servers and find out why they crash.
--
bill davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Subject: Re: What's left over.
From: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021102000343.29692C-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021102000343.29692C-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:20:06 +0100
Message-ID: <1036250967.16803.18.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.502.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed.fjserv.net!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
X-Original-Cc: Steven King <sxk...@qwest.net>,
Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: 02 Nov 2002 15:29:27 +0000
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
Lines: 14
On Sat, 2002-11-02 at 05:17, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> I was hoping Alan would push Redhat to put this in their Linux so we
> could resolve some of the ongoing problems which don't write an oops to a
> log, but I guess none of the developers has to actually support production
> servers and find out why they crash.
I think several Red Hat people would disagree very strongly. Red Hat
shipped with the kernel symbol decoding oops reporter for a good reason,
and also acquired netdump for a good reason.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 02:30:06 +0100
From: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Subject: Re: [lkcd-general] Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <1036250967.16803.18.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211021122530.28078-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.720.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!bofh.it!robomod
References: <1036250967.16803.18.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
X-Original-Cc: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>, Steven King <sxk...@qwest.net>,
Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
<lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 17:24:17 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Lines: 36
On 2 Nov 2002, Alan Cox wrote:
|>On Sat, 2002-11-02 at 05:17, Bill Davidsen wrote:
|>> I was hoping Alan would push Redhat to put this in their Linux so we
|>> could resolve some of the ongoing problems which don't write an oops to a
|>> log, but I guess none of the developers has to actually support production
|>> servers and find out why they crash.
|>
|>I think several Red Hat people would disagree very strongly. Red Hat
|>shipped with the kernel symbol decoding oops reporter for a good reason,
|>and also acquired netdump for a good reason.
It would be great if crash dumping were an option, at the very least
to unify the netdump, oops reporter and disk dumping (for those that
want it) into a single infrastructure. Long term, that's probably
where this is going anyway. It takes away the religious "who is right"
argument, which is fundamentally silly.
Maybe one day. I think quite a few Red Hat customers would
appreciate it.
--Matt
P.S. IBM shouldn't have signed a contact with Red Hat without
requiring certain features in Red Hat's OS(es). Pushing for
LKCD, kprobes, LTT, etc., wouldn't be on this list for a whole
variety of cases if that had been done in the first place.
P.S. As an aside, too many engineers try and make product marketing
decisions at Red Hat. I personally think that's really bad for
their business model as a whole (and I'm not referring to LKCD).
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Subject: Re: [lkcd-general] Re: What's left over.
From: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211021122530.28078-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211021122530.28078-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 02:40:06 +0100
Message-ID: <1036288145.18461.13.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.252.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
X-Original-Cc: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>, Steven King <sxk...@qwest.net>,
Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: 03 Nov 2002 01:49:05 +0000
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Lines: 28
On Sun, 2002-11-03 at 01:24, Matt D. Robinson wrote:
> P.S. IBM shouldn't have signed a contact with Red Hat without
> requiring certain features in Red Hat's OS(es). Pushing for
> LKCD, kprobes, LTT, etc., wouldn't be on this list for a whole
> variety of cases if that had been done in the first place.
I would hope IBM have more intelligence than to attempt to destroy the
product by trying to force all sorts of junk into it. The Linux world
has a process for filterng crap, it isnt IBM applying force. That path
leads to Star Office 5.2, Netscape 4 and other similar scales of horror
code that become unmaintainably bad.
> P.S. As an aside, too many engineers try and make product marketing
> decisions at Red Hat. I personally think that's really bad for
> their business model as a whole (and I'm not referring to LKCD).
You think things like EVMS are a product marketing decision. I'm very
glad you don't run a Linux distro. It would turn into something like the
old 3com rapops rather rapidly by your models (3com rapops btw ceased to
exist and for good reasons)
Alan
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 10:40:03 +0100
From: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
Subject: Re: [lkcd-devel] Re: [lkcd-general] Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <1036288145.18461.13.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211030118420.30732-100000@nakedeye.aparity.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.180.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!bofh.it!robomod
References: <1036288145.18461.13.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
X-Original-Cc: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>, Steven King <sxk...@qwest.net>,
Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
<lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>
X-Original-Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 01:34:03 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Lines: 54
On 3 Nov 2002, Alan Cox wrote:
|>On Sun, 2002-11-03 at 01:24, Matt D. Robinson wrote:
|>> P.S. IBM shouldn't have signed a contact with Red Hat without
|>> requiring certain features in Red Hat's OS(es). Pushing for
|>> LKCD, kprobes, LTT, etc., wouldn't be on this list for a whole
|>> variety of cases if that had been done in the first place.
|>
|>I would hope IBM have more intelligence than to attempt to destroy the
|>product by trying to force all sorts of junk into it. The Linux world
|>has a process for filterng crap, it isnt IBM applying force. That path
|>leads to Star Office 5.2, Netscape 4 and other similar scales of horror
|>code that become unmaintainably bad.
I think you misunderstand me. If IBM considers a feature to be useful,
they should require distributions to put into a release from a contractual
standpoint. That doesn't mean Red Hat has to put it into all their
distributions -- it just means they have to produce something that
IBM wants. If nobody else uses it, that's fine. IBM gets what they
want, and Red Hat gets what they want. End of story.
You're looking at this from an engineering perspective and open source
philosophy rather than a business unit at a company like IBM might look
at it. That's not a bad thing to do, but the two concepts are very
different from each other. The Linux world may filter "crap", which
is great, but some of that "crap" is important to companies like IBM,
and if they were smart they'd use their leverage ($$$) to make sure the
"crap" ends up in the products they care to use/support. The rest of
Linux can do whatever it wants, doing things the "Linux world" way.
|>> P.S. As an aside, too many engineers try and make product marketing
|>> decisions at Red Hat. I personally think that's really bad for
|>> their business model as a whole (and I'm not referring to LKCD).
|>
|>You think things like EVMS are a product marketing decision. I'm very
|>glad you don't run a Linux distro. It would turn into something like the
|>old 3com rapops rather rapidly by your models (3com rapops btw ceased to
|>exist and for good reasons)
Again, I wasn't mentioning any product in particular. Making decisions
like GPL-only as an engineering philosophy rather than as a product
marketing decision are more problematic than looking at EVMS vs. anything
else as a question of which is technically better.
But again, that's a complete aside and would probably open up a plethora
of opinions from people who care about both sides of that argument, and
would inevitably head down an rathole infinitely deep.
--Matt
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 15:40:10 +0100
From: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
Subject: Re: [lkcd-general] Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <1036288145.18461.13.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021103092330.5197D-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.14.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsmi-us.news.garr.it!NewsITBone-GARR!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
References: <1036288145.18461.13.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
X-Original-Cc: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Steven King <sxk...@qwest.net>,
Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 09:33:52 -0500 (EST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
Lines: 29
On 3 Nov 2002, Alan Cox wrote:
> I would hope IBM have more intelligence than to attempt to destroy the
> product by trying to force all sorts of junk into it. The Linux world
> has a process for filterng crap, it isnt IBM applying force. That path
> leads to Star Office 5.2, Netscape 4 and other similar scales of horror
> code that become unmaintainably bad.
If you define "unmaintainably bad" as "having features you don't need"
then I agree. But since dump to disk is in almost every other commercial
UNIX, maybe someone would question why it's good for others but not for
Linux.
I can agree on stuff the non-hacker wouldn't use, but that is exactly who
uses the crash dump in AIX, the person who wants to send a compressed dump
and money to IBM and get back a fix. Netdump assumes external resources
and a functional secure network (is the dump encrypted and I missed it?)
which home users surely don't have, and remote servers oftem lack as well.
--
bill davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Subject: Re: [lkcd-general] Re: What's left over.
From: Alan Cox <a...@lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021103092330.5197D-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1021103092330.5197D-100000@gatekeeper.tmr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8 (1.0.8-10)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 17:20:06 +0100
Message-ID: <1036341175.29646.49.camel@irongate.swansea.linux.org.uk>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.918.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
X-Original-Cc: "Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>,
Steven King <sxk...@qwest.net>,
Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
Joel Becker <Joel.Bec...@oracle.com>,
Chris Friesen <cfrie...@nortelnetworks.com>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net
X-Original-Date: 03 Nov 2002 16:32:55 +0000
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Bill Davidsen <david...@tmr.com>
Lines: 46
On Sun, 2002-11-03 at 14:33, Bill Davidsen wrote:
> If you define "unmaintainably bad" as "having features you don't need"
> then I agree. But since dump to disk is in almost every other commercial
> UNIX, maybe someone would question why it's good for others but not for
> Linux.
It isnt about features, its about clean maintainable code. netdump to me
doesnt mean no dump to disk option. In fact I'd rather like to be able
to insmod dump-foo.o. The correctness issues are hard but if the
dump-foo is standalone, resets the hardware and has an SHA integrity
check then it can be done (think of it as a post crash variant of the
trusted computing TCB verification problem)
> uses the crash dump in AIX, the person who wants to send a compressed dump
> and money to IBM and get back a fix. Netdump assumes external resources
Lots of interesting legal issues but yes you can do it sometimes (DMCA,
privacy, financial duties sometimes make it horribly complex). Even in
the case where you only dump the oops its still valuable.
> and a functional secure network (is the dump encrypted and I missed it?)
> which home users surely don't have, and remote servers oftem lack as well.
Encrypting the dump with the new crypto lib in the kernel would be easy,
right now it doesnt.
My disk dump concerns are purely those of correctness. That means
1. After loading the module getting the block list for the dump target
2. Resetting and scratch initializing the dump device
3. Not relying on any code outside of the dump TCB that may have
been corrupted
4. At dump time turning off all bus masters, doing the dump TCB
verification and then dumping
Most of the pieces already exist.
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Subject: Re: [lkcd-general] Re: What's left over.
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.7 March 21, 2001
Message-ID: <OFE5D1360D.AD5C65BE-ON80256C67.004027FF@portsmouth.uk.ibm.com>
From: "Richard J Moore" <richardj_mo...@uk.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 13:10:09 +0100
X-Mimetrack: Serialize by Router on D06ML023/06/M/IBM(Release 5.0.9a |January 7, 2002) at
04/11/2002 12:04:51
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.978.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!nntp.infostrada.it!bofh.it!robomod
X-Original-Cc: Dave Anderson <ander...@redhat.com>,
linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org, lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net,
lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net,
lkcd-general-ad...@lists.sourceforge.net,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 11:59:23 +0000
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Oliver Xymoron <oxymo...@waste.org>
Lines: 41
> What he really wants is for Andrew or Alan or someone else he trusts
> to merge it, get actual field results, and declare it useful. If
> people start visibly passing around crash dump results on l-k and
> solving problems with them, that'll help too. Until then all he has is
> his gut feel to go on.
Are you sure? Isn't what Linus is saying is that he understands that some
problems can be solved using dumps, some from the oops message and some by
source code inspection and some by others means. But, he's not interested
in a timely resolution; he has a preference for solving the problems by
looking at the source and only that way. That's his preference: arguments
relating to timeliness and commercial considerations are of no interest to
him - simply because they argue for benefits in which he has no interest.
Because LKCD doesn't personally interest him he has declared that he will
not merge it; it' up to some trusted advocate.
So, for those of use who passionately care whether Linux has a system
dumping mechanism, we need to regroup, we need to decide the correct
strategy for gaining LKCD's inclusion into the kernel. Many of the
arguments relate to timeliness and ultimately have a commercial benefit. I
suggest we actively campaign among the various distros who are interested
in selling Linus businesses and provide support. We also need to
concentrate on consolidating the various requirements of a system crash
dump - it's going to be much easier for everyone if there is a consensus on
system dumping technology.
First crucial question - are there any avenues still open for 2.5?
Richard J Moore
RAS Project Lead - IBM Linux Technology Centre
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 17:30:17 +0100
From: Linus Torvalds <torva...@transmeta.com>
Subject: Re: [lkcd-general] Re: What's left over.
In-Reply-To: <OFE5D1360D.AD5C65BE-ON80256C67.004027FF@portsmouth.uk.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0211040727330.771-100000@home.transmeta.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: robo...@news.nic.it
X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Approved: robo...@news.nic.it (1.20)
NNTP-Posting-Host: a.411.anti-phl.bofh.it
Newsgroups: linux.kernel
Organization: linux.*_mail_to_news_unidirectional_gateway
Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news.tele.dk!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!news.mailgate.org!bofh.it!robomod
References: <OFE5D1360D.AD5C65BE-ON80256C67.004027FF@portsmouth.uk.ibm.com>
X-Original-Cc: Oliver Xymoron <oxymo...@waste.org>,
Dave Anderson <ander...@redhat.com>, <linux-ker...@vger.kernel.org>,
<lkcd-de...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-gene...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
<lkcd-general-ad...@lists.sourceforge.net>,
Rusty Russell <ru...@rustcorp.com.au>,
"Matt D. Robinson" <yak...@aparity.com>
X-Original-Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:22:40 -0800 (PST)
X-Original-Sender: linux-kernel-ow...@vger.kernel.org
X-Original-To: Richard J Moore <richardj_mo...@uk.ibm.com>
Lines: 112
On Mon, 4 Nov 2002, Richard J Moore wrote:
>
> Are you sure? Isn't what Linus is saying is that he understands that some
> problems can be solved using dumps, some from the oops message and some by
> source code inspection and some by others means. But, he's not interested
> in a timely resolution;
Ok, with tons of explanation:
- I'm clearly not interested. I've not seen any discussion of the usage
of the tools or how great it is, and that's apparently because all the
LKCD people are off in their own mailing lists and do not want to have
anything to do with the rest of the world. Except when they come out of
the blue one week before feature freeze and _demand_ that I accept
their patches that I've never seen before or heard anybody talk about.
Hint: think about this part. Deeply. And then go and bother SOMEBODY
ELSE.
- Since I'm not personally convinced, it's not going into my tree.
It's as simple as that. I take stuff that I feel is good. Often that
feeling of goodness comes from trusting the person who sends it to me,
simply by past performance. At other times, it is because I think the
feature is cool, or well done, or whatever.
Hint: if you want stuff in my tree, make me trust you. Or work on
things that I feel are innately interesting. Don't bother dragging me
into your flame-wars and trying to convince me that I "must" apply your
patches.
- If it doesn't go into my tree, is that bad?
NO! Open source is all about _other_ people being able to make their
changes. It by no means means that those changes have to be accepted
back: the license basically only boils down to that I must be _able_ to
accept them back. But the really important thing, the thing that really
makes a difference, is that you, your dog, and your company can make
your OWN changes.
- If it doesn't have to happen in my tree, then whose tree _does_ it have
to happen in?
Doesn't much matter, actually. You can keep it in your tree, for all I
care. OSDL has already picked it up and apparently maintains it in
their tree. The only thing that matters is whether it gets used or not,
and whether it proves itself.
More people use vendor trees than my tree. And if you don't find a
vendor who will apply your patches, there are several "personal
vendors" out there, with the -ac, -aa and -mm trees being the obvious
ones. Many of those trees are not just used, they are also
obviously backed by people I do trust, which brings us back to the
criteria for _me_ to apply patches.
- Considering the above, if you still want it to _eventually_ make it
into my tree, what should you do?
Do you think pestering me makes me like the patches any more and trust
you? And if it doesn't, then how do you expect it to help, considering
my patch acceptance criteria?
No. The way to get it into my tree is not to whine about it. There are
a few different ways to get it into my tree:
(a) prove me wrong. And btw, it doesn't help to do so in your LKCD
mailing list. You need to get those patches out there to
_other_ people, or convince your own people that living in
your little hole just means that nobody else knows or cares
about you.
(b) If you can't convince me, convince somebody else. Maybe that
somebody else is somebody I trust, and that somebody else
feels that I was wrong and since _he_ believes in the project
he will try to convince me about it.
And trust me, the people I trust don't revere me and think I'm
always right. These people call me "pinhead" and tell me when
I'm full of shit. If these people don't believe in your
project, don't blame me and think it's because I "poisoned
their minds".
(c) Push your vendor. I have absolutely _zero_ incentives to care
about whining users (I care deeply about the non-whining
kind), but vendors do. Sometimes they do things just to get
their users off their backs.
And once it's in a vendor tree, that doesn't guarantee I pick
it up, but it _does_ guarantee that the patch is at least
widely used and thus we get more easily to (a) - proving me
wrong outside your own little world.
- Never whine about a patch. I know whining works with a lot of people
("Oh, for chrissake, I'll just do it to get him off my back") but it
works remarkably badly with me. Trust me on this.
Was this clear enough? Any confusion on any particular issue?
In short: convince somebody else. So far, the only thing that the
discussion has convinced me off is that people somehow seem to think that
they are ENTITLED to being merged into my tree. Tough. It ain't so. That
tree is called "Linus' tree" for a reason. The only thing you are
ENTITLED to is to have your own tree.
Linus
-
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in
the body of a message to majord...@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/
|