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From: s...@van-bc.UUCP
Newsgroups: can.general,news.misc,news.admin
Subject: uunet access from Canada
Message-ID: <954@van-bc.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 3-Jul-87 03:36:12 EDT
Article-I.D.: van-bc.954
Posted: Fri Jul 3 03:36:12 1987
Date-Received: Sat, 4-Jul-87 10:53:20 EDT
Distribution: can
Organization: Public Access Network, Vancouver, BC.
Lines: 91
Keywords: Tymnet UUNET
Is anyone out there interested in hooking into UUNET?
*****************************************************
While there are Tymnet access points in most major Canadian cities UUNET is
currently having problems getting Tymnet to allow cheap access from Canada.
Currently UUNET is charging $3/hr US for access from the continental US
during offpeak hours (7:00PM to 6:00AM).
They are charging $5/hr US for access from Hawaii.
Canadian access is $9/hr US.
********
Does this make sense to you? It certainly doesn't to me!
The basic problem is lack of one specific rate structure in Canada.
Specifically UUNET is utilizing a rate none as "Leisure time" available in
the US only. This amounts to $1/hr US plus about $.01/kb after the first
couple hundred kb/hr. In fact UUNET has been able to strike a deal which
allows them to charge a flat rate even though the character charge should
have put them up quite a bit higher, by guaranteeing 5000 hours of use per
month.
Tymnet has refused to allow this for Canada. In Canada UUNET must charge
normal offpeak charges of $9/hr US and $.01/kc. This works out to $9/hr US
with normal uucp type traffic at 2400 bps.
Is there any real reason for this?
**********************************
None that I can see. Tymnet does not have significantly higher costs of
doing business in Canada. And in fact almost all rates are the same in
Canada as in the US. We just don't rate getting this rate.
I contacted MacDonanal Douglas in Canada (who own Tymnet) about this.
They have been very helpful and want to help. But have not been able
to fix this problem yet.
Excuse number one (from their accounting department) is that it would take
3.5 weeks of programming effort to add leisure time to the Canadian rate
schedule.
Currently UUNET is recommending that Canadians use Datapac and access them
via X.25. The problem as I see it, is that the best rate for Datapac/Tymnet
is $2.75 / kpac + $.60 /hr holding charge. This works out to a theorectical
minimum of $22 per MB of data transferred.
Even at $9/hr UUNET should work out to about $20 / MB of data transferred.
($9 * 1.3 * 1.666 for .6mb / hour transfer rate.)
Is there anything we can do about this?
***************************************
Yes. I think that if enough people want to use this service, and make this
known to Tymnet we can get them to change their policies.
If you think as I do, that you're sick and tired of being treated as second
class citizens, please do one of the following:
- contact Tymnet directly
- send me mail (or call)
Please try and give an estimate of the number of hours per month you would
use the service.
A friendly contact at MacDonald Douglas in Canada is:
David Kingsland 416-229-4449
He is aware of the problem and is TRYING to get it fixed. If he can show his
higher up's that their is a significant amount of traffic just waiting to
use UUNET if the rate is changed, it will get changed. If we just sit around
and do nothing we will be doomed to live in isolation a little longer.
Mail to r...@seismo.css.gov probably would be helpful to. Just to show our
interest.
Lets face it folks. We have the potential here for getting access to UUNET
at the exact same rate as users in the US have. We could be on an
equal footing in terms of mail and news delivery.
Lets get to work on Tymnet and get our own version of free trade working!
--
{ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision,uunet}!van-bc!Stuart.Lynne Vancouver,BC,604-937-7532
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Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!looking!brad
From: b...@looking.UUCP
Newsgroups: can.general,news.misc,news.admin
Subject: Re: uunet access from Canada
Message-ID: <824@looking.UUCP>
Date: Fri, 3-Jul-87 17:16:52 EDT
Article-I.D.: looking.824
Posted: Fri Jul 3 17:16:52 1987
Date-Received: Sat, 4-Jul-87 15:16:50 EDT
References: <954@van-bc.UUCP>
Reply-To: b...@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
Distribution: can
Organization: Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 44
In article <9...@van-bc.UUCP> s...@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes:
>
>Is there any real reason for this?
>**********************************
>
>None that I can see. Tymnet does not have significantly higher costs of
>doing business in Canada. And in fact almost all rates are the same in
>Canada as in the US. We just don't rate getting this rate.
You underestimate the capacity of the Canadian government for getting
in the way of people trying to do cross-border business.
I think it's still illegal, for example, to ship data from point A in
Canada to point B in canada via point C in the USA. Usenet has always
been semi-illegal because of this. Why does a federal express pac cost
$40 from Canada. Why is a letter (no duty) cost $23? Why are airfares
much higher?
>Lets face it folks. We have the potential here for getting access to UUNET
>at the exact same rate as users in the US have. We could be on an
>equal footing in terms of mail and news delivery.
Datapac is actually quite cheap when used properly. People like Compuserve
and Genie could save their customers a fortune by getting a direct Datapac
connection. (They put lines for their own net in Toronto, they could connect
these lines to datapac and get a whole new slew of customers if they would
just think about it!)
One answer here is to put a UUNET relay in Canada, connected to datapac.
Have the relay pay whatever charge is cheapest (9600 bps, tymnet etc.)
to get all the stuff on demand from uunet, and then let people dial in
via datapac, or direct in the local calling region. (thus it probably makes
sense to put the Canadian uunet relay in T.O.)
UUNET is an effort of U.S. user groups, why not have /usr/group/cdn or
whoever fund a node. In theory, the hardware and X.25 software can
be had from the US UUNET site. SMOP, perhaps.
Based on phone bills of hundreds per month over Canadian links, such hardware
could be paid for quickly enough. I can't volunteer them, but watmath and
other vaxen already have X.25 links to datapac. Hard links to datapac are
not that expensive at low baud rates.
--
Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
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Path: utzoo!utgpu!water!watmath!ubc-vision!van-bc!sl
From: s...@van-bc.UUCP
Newsgroups: can.general,news.misc,news.admin
Subject: Re: uunet access from Canada
Message-ID: <958@van-bc.UUCP>
Date: Sat, 4-Jul-87 04:18:42 EDT
Article-I.D.: van-bc.958
Posted: Sat Jul 4 04:18:42 1987
Date-Received: Sat, 4-Jul-87 19:35:23 EDT
References: <954@van-bc.UUCP> <824@looking.UUCP>
Reply-To: s...@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne)
Distribution: can
Organization: Public Access Network, Vancouver, BC.
Lines: 104
In article <8...@looking.UUCP> b...@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton) writes:
>In article <9...@van-bc.UUCP> s...@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes:
>You underestimate the capacity of the Canadian government for getting
>in the way of people trying to do cross-border business.
>I think it's still illegal, for example, to ship data from point A in
>Canada to point B in canada via point C in the USA. Usenet has always
It would be real fun to see them try and stop it :-). I can just see the
mounties asking to see my log files. Sorry sir, I hope theres a copy on the
backup tape.
>been semi-illegal because of this. Why does a federal express pac cost
>$40 from Canada. Why is a letter (no duty) cost $23? Why are airfares
>much higher?
Good point, it shouldn't! We can work on that one next week.
>
>>Lets face it folks. We have the potential here for getting access to UUNET
>>at the exact same rate as users in the US have. We could be on an
>>equal footing in terms of mail and news delivery.
>
>Datapac is actually quite cheap when used properly. People like Compuserve
Datapac inside of Canda is still fairly expensive. For me to access Toronto
is still $1.38 / KP using Datapac 3000. This will give me an effective
transfer cost of about $5.52. This compares to $4 CDN for UUNET if we can get
the same rate that is charged in the US. This assumes that I have also got
X.25 hardware and software. And ignores the fact that the sign up fee for
UUNET is about $40 CDN as compared to $90 for off net Datapac 3000 service.
In Toronto the cost is only about $.22 / KP, but then why use Datapac when
you can make a call for free.
>and Genie could save their customers a fortune by getting a direct Datapac
>connection. (They put lines for their own net in Toronto, they could connect
>these lines to datapac and get a whole new slew of customers if they would
>just think about it!)
I don't think so. Datapac is semi reasonable for host-host using Datapac
3000 service. Datapac 3101 is a fair bit more (more than double for the most
part).
>One answer here is to put a UUNET relay in Canada, connected to datapac.
Personally I'll take the increased connectivity of UUNET. Why introduce and
extra delay.
>Have the relay pay whatever charge is cheapest (9600 bps, tymnet etc.)
That's the whole point. There is no current "cheapest" way. UUNET is $9/hr
in offpeak (7:00PM to 6:00AM). Datapac/Tymnet is $23/MB of data.
Long distance from Toronto is probably on the order of $10 Cdn from 12:00PM
to 8:00AM.
>to get all the stuff on demand from uunet, and then let people dial in
>via datapac, or direct in the local calling region. (thus it probably makes
>sense to put the Canadian uunet relay in T.O.)
^^^^^^
Unfortunately your right. Maybe I should move back home to Ontario ...
>UUNET is an effort of U.S. user groups, why not have /usr/group/cdn or
>whoever fund a node. In theory, the hardware and X.25 software can
>be had from the US UUNET site. SMOP, perhaps.
Actually /usr/group/cdn might be able to play a role in just getting us a
better hookup to UUNET. The possibility exists to setup a separate billing
account from Canada for Canadian customers. This would have the rate set by
the Canadain side of Tymnet who may be more interested in trying to get our
business. This would require some responsible party who would guarantee the
payment, and invoice and collect the money. Actually I suspect you could get
UUNET to actually issue the invoices. The billing is based on the uucico
connect time on their machine (you can get better stats direct from Tymnet
if you want to issue separate Tymnet user id's but that costs $6 / month per
id).
>other vaxen already have X.25 links to datapac. Hard links to datapac are
>not that expensive at low baud rates.
Still $82 for off net 1200 bps, and $90 for off net 2400 bps. Not to mention
X.25 hardware and software.
Anyway I am not convinced that we could offer a cheaper service from a site
in Canada. Remember that the communications costs are not the only cost.
While UUNET charges $3/hr US, they have budgeted into this approxiametely $1
US to cover the capital costs of the equipment they are purchasing, and the
operating costs. Given the above example of Vancouver to Toronto, this would
put the billed cost up to something in the order of $6.50 per hour.
Of course there is a place for this service in providing A Canadian mail
system that is extremely inexpensive and not sensitive to when it is used.
That is being proved every day. But for low cost news, and low cost
overnight mail, I don't think we can beat UUNET.
--
{ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision,uunet}!van-bc!Stuart.Lynne Vancouver,BC,604-937-7532
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