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From: sc...@hou2g.UUCP (Ma-Ma-Ma-Max Ma-Ma-Max Headroom)
Newsgroups: net.mail,net.news.config,net.news.newsite,net.net-people
Subject: Looking for Chicago Usenet Access
Message-ID: <964@hou2g.UUCP>
Date: Mon, 8-Sep-86 21:01:01 EDT
Article-I.D.: hou2g.964
Posted: Mon Sep  8 21:01:01 1986
Date-Received: Tue, 9-Sep-86 06:23:12 EDT
Organization: The Wave
Lines: 23

Hi.  I'm not sure if all these groups are appropriate for this,
so if you want to flame, go right ahead.  Nonsense I'll ignore,
though constructive criticism will be duly considered.

My brother is looking for a public access machine in the Chicago
area which will enable him to connect to the uucp network for 
E-mail (at least) and netnews (preferrably).  He has tried chinet,
but the administrator there has said that his link with ihnp4 is
"tenuous" at best; he is only allowing access to usenet (and apparantly
by extension, E-mail) to people he knows, even though my bro has said
he will gladly pay the "subscriber" fee.

I understand that ihnp4 *is* having problems forwarding mail, and with
the volume they pass along, I guess I'm not too surprised.  Can anybody 
help me out?  Thanks.

		=========================================
"The tyranny of what seems reasonable often impedes science."

		Scott J. Berry	       packard \
	        AT&T-Bell Labs	       allegra  | --!hou2g!scott
		Holmdel		         ihnp4 /

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From: a...@cbrma.UUCP (A.S.Kamlet)
Newsgroups: net.mail,net.news.config,net.news.newsite,net.net-people
Subject: Re: Looking for Chicago Usenet Access
Message-ID: <5082@cbrma.UUCP>
Date: Tue, 9-Sep-86 20:33:06 EDT
Article-I.D.: cbrma.5082
Posted: Tue Sep  9 20:33:06 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 11-Sep-86 05:58:55 EDT
References: <964@hou2g.UUCP>
Reply-To: a...@cbrma.UUCP (A.S.Kamlet(Art))
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Lines: 19

In article <9...@hou2g.UUCP> sc...@hou2g.UUCP (Ma-Ma-Ma-Max Ma-Ma-Max Headroom) writes:
>Hi.  I'm not sure if all these groups are appropriate for this,
>so if you want to flame, go right ahead.  Nonsense I'll ignore,
>though constructive criticism will be duly considered.
>
>My brother is looking for a public access machine in the Chicago
>area which will enable him to connect to the uucp network for 
>E-mail (at least) and netnews (preferrably).  He has tried chinet,
>but the administrator there has said that his link with ihnp4 is
>"tenuous" at best; he is only allowing access to usenet (and apparantly
>by extension, E-mail) to people he knows, even though my bro has said
>he will gladly pay the "subscriber" fee.
:
:
Is that right?  Does chinet charge a subscription fee to let people
join the net?  And is ihnp4 its link?   I sort of got the idea that
this was a non-commercial net.
-- 
Art Kamlet   AT&T Bell Laboratories  Columbus  {cbosgd | ihnp4}!cbrma!ask

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Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!gatech!cbosgd!mark
From: m...@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton)
Newsgroups: net.mail,net.news.config,net.news.newsite,net.net-people
Subject: Re: Looking for Chicago Usenet Access
Message-ID: <2531@cbosgd.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 10-Sep-86 15:43:08 EDT
Article-I.D.: cbosgd.2531
Posted: Wed Sep 10 15:43:08 1986
Date-Received: Wed, 10-Sep-86 23:59:26 EDT
References: <964@hou2g.UUCP> <5082@cbrma.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Oh
Lines: 32

In article <5...@cbrma.UUCP> a...@cbrma.UUCP (A.S.Kamlet(Art)) writes:
>In article <9...@hou2g.UUCP> sc...@hou2g.UUCP (Ma-Ma-Ma-Max Ma-Ma-Max Headroom) writes:
>>He has tried chinet,
>>but the administrator there has said that his link with ihnp4 is
>>"tenuous" at best; he is only allowing access to usenet (and apparantly
>>by extension, E-mail) to people he knows, even though my bro has said
>>he will gladly pay the "subscriber" fee.
>:
>Is that right?  Does chinet charge a subscription fee to let people
>join the net?  And is ihnp4 its link?   I sort of got the idea that
>this was a non-commercial net.

The net is noncommercial, but that doesn't mean every host on it is
noncommercial.  Could a random person call Art on the phone and demand
a login on cbrma for free?  Of course not - cbrma has policies about
who it will allow on the machine, and what they have to do in exchange
for that login.  (Probably involves their job at Bell Labs.)

Similarly, a public access host like chinet or well might be a general
purpose UNIX machine, run by a ``computer center'' like entity, which
charges for access to the machine, and happens to have connections
into Usenet and/or UUCP.  Chinet can't charge for the right to receive
or send mail or news, but they can charge for the machine resources on
chinet consumed by a user receiving or sending mail or news.  From the
user viewpoint it may amount to the same thing, but the fundamental
point is that those machine resources belong to chinet, and they can
allocate them any way they see fit.  Also, chinet doesn't have an exclusive
franchise in Chicago to redistribute netnews, so if they charge an
unreasonable fee, there's nothing to stop a user from finding someone
else to connect in through instead.

	Mark Horton

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Posting-Version: version B 2.10.2 9/18/84; site looking.UUCP
Path: utzoo!watmath!looking!brad
From: b...@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
Newsgroups: net.mail,net.news.config,net.news.newsite,net.net-people
Subject: Re: Looking for Chicago Usenet Access
Message-ID: <663@looking.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 10-Sep-86 23:23:57 EDT
Article-I.D.: looking.663
Posted: Wed Sep 10 23:23:57 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 11-Sep-86 10:03:46 EDT
References: <964@hou2g.UUCP> <5082@cbrma.UUCP> <2531@cbosgd.UUCP>
Reply-To: b...@looking.UUCP (Brad Templeton)
Organization: Looking Glass Software Ltd. Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 32
Summary: 

In article <2...@cbosgd.UUCP> m...@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) writes:
>
>The net is noncommercial, but that doesn't mean every host on it is
>noncommercial. 
>
>Similarly, a public access host like chinet or well might be a general
>purpose UNIX machine, run by a ``computer center'' like entity, which
>charges for access to the machine, and happens to have connections
>into Usenet and/or UUCP.  Chinet can't charge for the right to receive
>or send mail or news, but they can charge for the machine resources on
>chinet consumed by a user receiving or sending mail or news.

Actually, as far as I can see, there is nothing stopping any site from
charging for the right to receive or send mail and news.  Many sites already
have classes of users (sometimes based on how the accounting is done) some
of which can use net facilities and some of which can't.

This net *is* a commercial net, insofar as it is privately owned by the
owners of the equipment that support it.  The owners of the net have
no official organization, so it doesn't seem privately owned, but it is.

>Also, chinet doesn't have an exclusive
>franchise in Chicago to redistribute netnews, so if they charge an
>unreasonable fee, there's nothing to stop a user from finding someone
>else to connect in through instead.

And this is the only thing that stops somebody from charging for the mail
and news.  It's not very strong though, as nobody could do very well
providing free net use to people who don't like the prices down the
street.
-- 
Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. - Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473

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Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!lll-crg!lll-lcc!styx!mcb
From: m...@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch)
Newsgroups: net.mail,net.news.config
Subject: Re: Looking for Chicago Usenet Access
Message-ID: <20848@styx.UUCP>
Date: Thu, 11-Sep-86 13:25:27 EDT
Article-I.D.: styx.20848
Posted: Thu Sep 11 13:25:27 1986
Date-Received: Thu, 11-Sep-86 21:38:58 EDT
References: <964@hou2g.UUCP> <5082@cbrma.UUCP> <2531@cbosgd.UUCP>
Reply-To: m...@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch)
Followup-To: net.mail
Organization: Lawrence Livermore Laboratory, Livermore CA
Lines: 27
Summary: Charging for news/mail access

In article <2...@cbosgd.UUCP> m...@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) writes:
> [Discussion of commercial public access systems]
> [...]
> Similarly, a public access host like chinet or well might be a general
> purpose UNIX machine, run by a ``computer center'' like entity, which
> charges for access to the machine, and happens to have connections
> into Usenet and/or UUCP.  Chinet can't charge for the right to receive
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> or send mail or news, but they can charge for the machine resources on
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> chinet consumed by a user receiving or sending mail or news.  From the
> user viewpoint it may amount to the same thing, but the fundamental
> point is that those machine resources belong to chinet, and they can
> allocate them any way they see fit.  Also, chinet doesn't have an exclusive
> franchise in Chicago to redistribute netnews, so if they charge an
> unreasonable fee, there's nothing to stop a user from finding someone
> else to connect in through instead.

I don't understand. Suppose a site decided to charge by the number of mail 
messages sent or received, or the number of bytes or lines of news read or 
posted. Or charged $X for a plain account and $X+N for an account with
mail/new privileges? Why is this "forbidden", and by whom? Mark's exposition
is a good one, but I don't follow the distinction that he makes.

Michael C. Berch
ARPA: m...@lll-tis-b.ARPA
UUCP: {ihnp4,dual,sun}!lll-lcc!styx!mcb

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Path: utzoo!mnetor!seismo!gatech!cbosgd!mark
From: m...@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton)
Newsgroups: net.mail
Subject: Re: Looking for Chicago Usenet Access
Message-ID: <2545@cbosgd.UUCP>
Date: Sun, 14-Sep-86 00:42:40 EDT
Article-I.D.: cbosgd.2545
Posted: Sun Sep 14 00:42:40 1986
Date-Received: Sun, 14-Sep-86 10:59:04 EDT
References: <964@hou2g.UUCP> <5082@cbrma.UUCP> <2531@cbosgd.UUCP> <20848@styx.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Oh
Lines: 23

In article <20...@styx.UUCP> m...@styx.UUCP (Michael C. Berch) writes:
>In article <2...@cbosgd.UUCP> m...@cbosgd.UUCP (Mark Horton) writes:
>> into Usenet and/or UUCP.  Chinet can't charge for the right to receive
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> or send mail or news, but they can charge for the machine resources on
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>I don't understand. Suppose a site decided to charge by the number of mail 
>messages sent or received, or the number of bytes or lines of news read or 
>posted. Or charged $X for a plain account and $X+N for an account with
>mail/new privileges? Why is this "forbidden", and by whom? Mark's exposition
>is a good one, but I don't follow the distinction that he makes.

Chinet can't charge for the right to access Usenet, as I said.
However, they can charge for the right to *use the chinet machine
to access Usenet*.  Similarly, in the United States, nobody can
charge me for the right to receive NBC TV, which is a public broadcast
station.  However, they have no obligation to furnish me with a TV
set to pick it up, and every right to charge me if I want to use their
TV set.  Of course, I am free to provide my own TV set (at my expense)
and incur no further charges.

	Mark

			  SCO's Case Against IBM

November 12, 2003 - Jed Boal from Eyewitness News KSL 5 TV provides an
overview on SCO's case against IBM. Darl McBride, SCO's president and CEO,
talks about the lawsuit's impact and attacks. Jason Holt, student and 
Linux user, talks about the benefits of code availability and the merits 
of the SCO vs IBM lawsuit. See SCO vs IBM.

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