Does anybody have an assembler in C?

From owner-pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au Wed Mar 11 17:07:57 1998
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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 16:37:35 +1030
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: PDP UNIX Preservation Society < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
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I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD
(running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the
assembler's written in, well, assembler.  It would be Real Convenient
if I could find an assembler written in C.  Does anybody know of one?

Greg

From: Ken Wellsch < kcwellsc@math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199803111529.KAA26566@math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:23 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <19980311163735.37825@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Mar 11, 98 04:37:35 pm
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility
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Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader. I could swear
the assember was in C - I am sure because I recall fighting with all the
code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
the details of precisely which one it matched more closely).  If Tim
does not still have the contents I know I've got it archived away and
can fetch that part for you.  -- Ken

| From owner-pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Mar 11 01:16:07 1998
| 
| I'm trying to set up a cross-development environment for 2.11BSD
| (running under 4.4BSD), and I've run into trouble because the
| assembler's written in, well, assembler.  It would be Real Convenient
| if I could find an assembler written in C.  Does anybody know of one?
| 
| Greg

From: Tim Shoppa < shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:36:33 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <199803111529.KAA26566@math.uwaterloo.ca> from "Ken Wellsch" at Mar 11, 98 10:29:23 am
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> Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
> that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.

Vaguely.  I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.

> code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
> that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
> C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
> the details of precisely which one it matched more closely).

I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly -
and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but
with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11.  Does
this ring a bell?  Or am I completely on the wrong track?

Tim.

From: Tim Shoppa < shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803111821.AA19967@alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:00 -0800 (PST)
Cc: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca
In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am
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> > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
> > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.
> 
> Vaguely.  I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
> sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.

Taking a quick look at the DECUS C package, I see that isn't the answer.
There's an "as"-style assembler there written in MACRO-11, though :-).

I think you were referring to the XINU-11 package available by anonymous
ftp from sunsite:

ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu

in particular, if you look in

ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/xinu/
    unpacked/src/cmd/as11

you'll find the "as11" sources in C, specifically written for BSD4.3 on
a VAX.

I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding
the XINU package.  If research shows that this is freely distributable,
is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive,
Warren?

Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca)

From: Ken Wellsch < kcwellsc@math.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-Id: <199803111822.NAA31588@math.uwaterloo.ca>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:22:47 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <9803111636.AA08101@alph02.triumf.ca> from "Tim Shoppa" at Mar 11, 98 08:36:33 am
Organization: University of Waterloo, Math Faculty Computing Facility
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Tim,

No, the DECUS C compiler is a very different kettle of fish.  Sorry to
be so vague - I can only go by memory now as all my archived info is on
CD-ROM's at home.  Back in the mid to late 80's a few folks made available
a bundle put together by the folks at Purdue I think - I believe it was
related to Dr. Comer (sp?) and the Xinu stuff - but this bundle was
intended to provide a compiler environment on SunOS systems of the mid
80's to teach lower level system stuff - I've forgotten if it related
to simulating an 11 or was instead just for a cross-compiler environment
to build Xinu mini-kernels on faster platforms to then download to the LSI
11 testbed.  One place I picked it up (via FTP) called it "sunchip.tar.Z"
or similar, while another I think just called it "chip.tar.Z."

I mentioned you only because I do remember grabbing it from your sunsite
archive while you were still at Caltech and later sending e-mail WRT the
licensing thing.

-- Ken

| From owner-pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Mar 11 11:45:28 1998
| 
| > Tim Shoppa I believe is familiar with the "chip" or "sunchip" tar bundle
| > that contained a PDP-11 C compiler, assembler and loader.
| 
| Vaguely.  I'll try to track down the exact reference - I'm not
| sure whether your referring to the DECUS C package or not.
| 
| > code to port it a long time ago to another UNIX box. Now I was the jerk
| > that kept saying "gee that C compiler sure looks a lot like the V6/V7
| > C compiler" (yeah I know they are different - I never bothered to go into
| > the details of precisely which one it matched more closely).
| 
| I seem to recall that the DECUS C compiler is written in MACRO-11 assembly -
| and pretty much a straight translation of the V6/V7 C compiler - but
| with different run time libraries for RSX and RT-11.  Does
| this ring a bell?  Or am I completely on the wrong track?
| 
| Tim.

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU>
Message-Id: <199803112025.HAA16016@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Does anybody have an assembler in C?
To: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:25:03 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <9803111821.AA19967@alph02.triumf.ca> from Tim Shoppa at "Mar 11, 98 10:21:00 am"
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In article by Tim Shoppa:
> I have to admit that I'm not fully aware of the copyrights regarding
> the XINU package.  If research shows that this is freely distributable,
> is this something we'd want to distribute through the PUPS archive,
> Warren?
> 
> Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca)

Xinu is freely distributable, as long as it's not sold as a competing
product to Doug Comer's book. It's in the archive.

Another solution for a assembler in C is some stuff I've got from a
Russian, who `ported' either cc or pcc to a Sparc, as a cross-compiler.
Greg, have a look in .miscfiles. If someone can make some order out of
this, I'll put it in the archive.

To the PUPS readers, there is a whole lot of stuff I've got but I haven't
added into the PUPS ARchive as yet:

	+ System V		(SCO license doesn't include it)
	+ copyright stuff	I haven't cleared it's release yet
	+ unsorted jumble	Someone has to categorise this

I could put the unsorted jumble into the PUPS Archive. Yes or no?

P.S Woke up to a barrage of email today. Wading thru it....

Warren

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172059.HAA01365@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:59:03 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803171500.KAA03862@link.link-systems.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 10:00:36 am"
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In article by Ken Wellsch:
	[ Ken confirms that the Xinu distribution for the PDP-11 includes
	  the sunchip package, which is a C compiler and assembler, all
	  written in C ]

> Chip is the "Cornell Hypothetical Instructional Processor."  It has a
> PDP11-like architecture and supports virtual memory.
> description can be found in the technical report:
> 
> To run the simulator for this machine, you need a 4.1bsd (or newer) Unix
> system. The distribution also contains a development environment for CHIP
> containing a C compiler, assembler, loader and various other tools.  To
> run the development software, you currently need Digital Equipment Corp.
> VAX computer.  However, with minimal effort, all of this software should
> be able to run on any host with UNIX.
> 
> 	[...]
> 
> ----------------------------------- end of README --------------------
> 
> P.S.  As I suspected and feared,
> 
> 	% diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11
> 
> indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu,
> CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler.

So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?

	Warren

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172139.IAA01634@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Sunchip compiler -- how to get it.
To: Milo.Velimirovic@uwlax.edu
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:18 +1100 (EST)
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
In-Reply-To: <9803172136.AA03640@toes.its.uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic at "Mar 17, 98 03:36:20 pm"
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In article by Milo Velimirovic:
> Postscript to previous note,
> 
> Where might I obtain the sunCHIP C compiler for comparison purposes?

You need to fetch the Xinu distribution. I haven't got time to unpack the
compiler sections right now, but you can get the whole tarball at

ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/incoming/DISTR.lsi.tar.gz

	Warren

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199803172241.JAA01741@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Real Origin of the DECUS C Compiler?
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:41:55 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <199803172238.RAA24010@link.link-systems.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Mar 17, 98 05:38:12 pm"
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In article by Ken Wellsch:
> I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything
> from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong.  The DECUS C stuff had a
> special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe
> a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago...

Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong.
Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler?

	Warren

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# In article by Ken Wellsch:
# > I wasn't aware the DECUS C compiler (written in assembler) took anything
# > from V6 and/or V7 but I may well be wrong.  The DECUS C stuff had a
# > special interest to me back in the Waterloo days because I believe
# > a former U of Waterloo person wrote it long ago...
# 
# Hmm, that's what I'd heard. Perhaps the person who told me this was wrong.
# Can anybody tell us the correct origins of the DECUS C compiler?

One thing I can tell for sure: the DECUS C Compiler and the K&R CC are
completely different in their origins. I'm about 90% sure the DECUS XCC
is written in MACRO-11.

The reason I'm so sure is because we were looking at a suitable C compiler
to run on our 11/34 back in 1989 and we first mungled with the DECUS XCC.
But this one had several deficiencies, among them I remember lack of blocks
within functions, local variable initialization, difficulties with typedefs/structs.
Maybe, Harti could tell more.

We were looking into Johnson's pcc, but this one turned out to be a too big
piece of work and to slow to run on our 128 KWord machine.

Harti tried to port the Whitesmith CC from RT11, and it ran, but there were
deficiencies with the RT emulation, so we dropped that.

Finally, we took the K&R UNIX CC and reworked it so that it would pass the
DECUS XCC to produce the stage one. We wrote our own unix assembler supporting
the RSX object file format from scratch. Later, we recompiled the K&R CC on
RSX with itself. This system became our workhorse for the next 2 years, the
compiler is still amazingly fast, both in terms of runtime and the code being
produced. (Quoted: Harti)

So here are the 4 different original sources of C compilers for the 11, though,
admittedly, 2 of them would run on DEC's original OS, not on UNIX, which I guess,
makes them somewhat irrelevant to PUPS. Am I right here ? (Where do we draw the
boundary ?)

	Joerg

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To: wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
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> > > P.S.  As I suspected and feared,
> > 
> > 	% diff -r Trees/V7/usr/src/cmd/c Xinu/src/cmd/cc11
> > 
> > indicates the C compiler provided in all these archives (Xinu,
> > CHIP, sunCHIP) are directly derived from the V6/V7 compiler.
> 
> So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
> for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?

Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C
compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11
though...)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
CS student at Uppsala University  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt@minsk.docs.uu.se       ||  Reading murder books
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From: Tim Shoppa < shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: Sunchip package [was Assember in C?]
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> > So is the DECUS C compiler, I hear. Is there any native C compiler
> > for the PDP-11 which isn't derived from V6/V7?
> 
> Well, the obvious answer is DEC's (nowadays MENTEC's) own ANSI C
> compiler, which runs under RSX and RSTS/e (not sure about RT-11
> though...)

Yes, it does run under RT-11 (that's the only version I've used.)
But I've no idea of the lineage of that particular compiler - it wouldn't
surprise me to find out that it was derived from V6/V7 in some way.
(Though clearly with entirely new run-time libraries.)

As long as we're on the subject: has anyone succesfully cross-compiled
using 'gcc' on some non-11 platform to produce PDP-11 object code, which
they than succesfully ran?  While the compiler seems to work fine, I've
run into confusion when trying to use the *.h files from 2.11BSD to
do something useful.

Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca)