CD-ROM from SCO unlikely

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST)
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Dion in SCO says:

   > What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
   > be prepared to do this?

> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
> free stuff programs to do this.  I was hoping you enthusiasts already
> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
> 
> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
> filled out license form.  Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
> how to service the new guy.  Would that work?

So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)

	Warren

Message-ID: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP UNIX Preservation Society < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Thu, 26 February 1998 at  9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Dion in SCO says:
>
>> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
>> be prepared to do this?
>
>> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
>> free stuff programs to do this.  I was hoping you enthusiasts already
>> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
>>
>> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
>> filled out license form.  Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
>> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
>> how to service the new guy.  Would that work?
>
> So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
> license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)

Don't say I didn't tell you.

I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
(what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.

Greg

From: Warren Toomey < wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-Id: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (PDP Unix Preservation)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am"
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> Don't say I didn't tell you.

Oh, I was expecting this.

> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.

I'd like to see:

	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels

in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a
reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM
image won't change more than once a year.

As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
need the volunteers to have PGP too.

If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.

We're going to have to work on this in the next few months.

Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering!

	Warren

Message-ID: <19980226103014.06033@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au, PDP Unix Preservation < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
> Oh, I was expecting this.
>
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
> I'd like to see:
>
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes

I can volunteer for this.  The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
(8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel
1600 bpi.

>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
> in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). 

Europe and UK separately, eh?

> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.

Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.
That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.

One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
RockRidge format (UNIX long file names).  It would be a real pain to
be limited to DOS-style naming.

> As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
> via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
> need the volunteers to have PGP too.

Not a problem.

> If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
> You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.

Seems reasonable.

Greg

--
Greg Lehey                       LEMIS
grog@lemis.com			 PO Box 460
Tel: +61-8-8388-8286		 Echunga SA 5153
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725		 Australia

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" < sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>
To: grog@lemis.com, pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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Howdy -

> From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
> I can volunteer for this.  The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
> (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi.

	Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150?

	I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work
	at all.  The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves
	record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes).  I can 
	make TK25 tapes.

	I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at
	which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace
	it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)).

> > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
> 
> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
> a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.

	You've me to thank for that ;-)

> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.

	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
	applied.

> One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
> RockRidge format (UNIX long file names).  It would be a real pain to

	Of course!  There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that
	need help with long filenames or deep directories.

	Steven Schultz

Message-ID: < mBJJxWA5Py90EwEW@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000
To: wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au
Cc: PDP Unix Preservation < pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
From: Robin Birch < robin@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
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In message <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
< wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
>Oh, I was expecting this.
> 
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
>I'd like to see:
>
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of
anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73.

This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage
is reimbursed.

Robin

PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future.
Robin Birch     robin@falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU           Old computers and radios always welcome

Message-ID: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: "Steven M. Schultz" < sms@moe.2bsd.com>, pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au,
        wkt@cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Howdy -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
>>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
>>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
>>
>> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
>> a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.
>
> 	You've me to thank for that ;-)

Indeed.  Thanks.

>> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
>> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
>
> 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
> 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> 	applied.

Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
to be up to date?

Greg

From: Tim Shoppa < shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm
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> > 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> > 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> > 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
> > 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> > 	applied.
> 
> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
> to be up to date?

You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.

What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus
-11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.

It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 

Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca)

Message-ID: <19980228150926.00518@freebie.lemis.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030
From: Greg Lehey < grog@lemis.com>
To: Tim Shoppa < shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>, pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
>>> 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
>>> 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
>>> 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
>>> 	applied.
>>
>> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
>> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
>> to be up to date?
>
> You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
> he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
>
> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved,
it might be easier to burn WORMs.

Greg

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From: "Steven M. Schultz" < sms@moe.2bsd.com>
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To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
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Tim -

> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

	The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major
	projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find
	something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;)

> Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
> barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and

	How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?  I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
	for my 11 - they're nice.  I don't like the DB25 style of cable
	that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
	rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.

> -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.

	Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
	with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
	the 11/73.  Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
	with the Emulex UC08.  For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
	appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
	the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).  
	The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
	at drives that don't do variable record mode.  Do the CMD adaptors
	do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?

> It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
> have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will

	Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the 
	ISO9660 filesystem.  Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd
	media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading
	in popularity.

> boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 
 
	It'll panic.  For a couple reasons:  pipes are implemented via
	the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
	needs a rw filesystem.  And a swap area is needed.  If there's
	memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
	argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
	swap space.  It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not
	clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.

	Steven

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From: Tim Shoppa < shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
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Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms@moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
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> > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
> > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
> 
> 	How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?

On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just
under a megabyte per second.  In other words: damn fast.  (Fast
7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second).  Booting
from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54.  I posted some
benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago.

>  I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
> 	for my 11 - they're nice.  I don't like the DB25 style of cable
> 	that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
> 	rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.

That aren't all that rare.  You just have to go someplace other than
Fry's, that's all :-).

> > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
> 
> 	Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
> 	with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
> 	the 11/73.  Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
> 	with the Emulex UC08.  For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
> 	appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
> 	the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).  
> 	The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
> 	at drives that don't do variable record mode.  Do the CMD adaptors
> 	do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?

The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size-
block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its
hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized
"virtual" blocks.  (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you
automagically.)

> > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
> 
> 	Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the 
> 	ISO9660 filesystem.

That's OK.  The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like
4 512-byte blocks.  And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem;
if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone
CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down.  I've
built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way.

> > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 
>  
> 	It'll panic.  For a couple reasons:  pipes are implemented via
> 	the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
> 	needs a rw filesystem.  And a swap area is needed.  If there's
> 	memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
> 	argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
> 	swap space.  It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk

RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by
using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:).

> but it's not
> 	clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.

It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-).  I find
the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're
a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart!

Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca)

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From: Tim Shoppa < shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803010445.AA18387@alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms@moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:45:51 -0800 (PST)
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
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> > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
> > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
> 
> 	How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?

In case anyone is interested in the benchmarks, here's a short summary:

Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
"internal" SCSI ZIP) are present on my main development machine, a 11/73
(KDJ11-B) with 2 Mbytes of non-PMI memory.  Caching on both controllers
was enabled and two benchmarks were done with each disk subsystem.  Times
reported below are "wall times".  All of this is done under the latest
release of 2.11BSD using a non-networking system and no other work
being done on the system.

1.  "make sendmail" took 1159.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi, and 1165.3
    seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.

2.  "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
    and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.

It looks like, for most purposes, the ZIP on a good SCSI host adapter is
just as good as an ESDI drive on a good ESDI controller.  I think
Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
but I think that the buffering in the host adapter and in the ZIP drive
itself makes this a minor concern.

Tim.

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Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:25:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven M. Schultz" < sms@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-Id: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com>
To: shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca, sms@moe.2bsd.com
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
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Hi -

> From shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca Sat Feb 28 20:45:54 1998
> 
> Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
> an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an

	I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they
	are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-))

    Andromeda Systems, Inc.
    9000 Eton Avenue
    Canoga Park, CA 91304

    818-709-7600 (voice)
    818-709-7407 (FAX)

	No mention of a WWW site though.  I'd imagine their boards, while
	very good, are quite expensive.  As much as I'd like a Zip drive
	on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-)

> 2.  "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
>     and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.

	WOW.  That is quite surprising.

> Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,

	Quite so.  Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' 
	operations.

	Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip?  I know there's the
	2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip.  On
	the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb
	"zip like" (but not compatible) drive.

	Steven

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From: Tim Shoppa < shoppa@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-Id: <9803012009.AA19319@alph02.triumf.ca>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:09:46 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am
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> > Both a Webster ESDC (1 Megabyte cache, Hitachi DK512-12 ESDI drive) and
> > an Andromeda SCDC (2 Mbyte cache connected to many SCSI devices, including an
> 	I tracked down an address and phone number for Andromeda Systems - they
> 	are real close to me (in fact I drive by them every visit to Fry's ;-))
>     Andromeda Systems, Inc.
>     9000 Eton Avenue
>     Canoga Park, CA 91304
>     818-709-7600 (voice)
>     818-709-7407 (FAX)
> 
> 	No mention of a WWW site though.

Try http://www.andromedasystems.com/

>       I'd imagine their boards, while
> 	very good, are quite expensive.  As much as I'd like a Zip drive
> 	on the 11/93 I can't see spending US$1-2k for a $139 disk drive :-)

Hook up 6 other SCSI devices to the board and you might change your mind!
The SCDC also supports standard 34-pin 5.25" and 3.5" floppies.

> > 2.  "find /usr -print > /dev/null" took 166.4 seconds on the WQESD+Hitachi
> >     and 165.0 seconds on the SCDC+ZIP.
> 
> 	WOW.  That is quite surprising.
> 
> > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
> 
> 	Quite so.  Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' 
> 	operations.

Actually, the ZIP "in-use" LED wasn't lit during most of the 'find'.  I
suspect the Andromeda SCDC cached most of the important inodes quite
early on.

In terms of raw bandwidth to the Q-bus, nothing I've ever seen comes
close to the SCDC.  2 Mbytes/second may not be a whole lot by modern
PCI bus standards, but on the Q-bus it's very impressive.

> 	Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip?

I've heard mention of it too, but AFAIK it's still vaporware.  100 Mbytes
is, indeed, pretty tight for a 2.11BSD distribution, but it does fit.

Tim. (shoppa@triumf.ca)

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From: jimc@zach1.tiac.net (James E. Carpenter)
Subject: Re: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
To: sms@moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:32:20 -0500 (EST)
Cc: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
In-Reply-To: <199803011925.LAA08986@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Mar 1, 98 11:25:54 am
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> > Steven was expecting to see a substantial hit due to the ZIP's access time,
> 
> 	Quite so.  Especially on the 'find' which is almost pure 'seek' 
> 	operations.
> 
> 	Wasn't there mention somewhere of a 200mb Zip?  I know there's the
> 	2gb Jaz drive now but haven't heard anymore about a larger Zip.  On
> 	the other hand there is the Syquest product line - they've a 135mb
> 	"zip like" (but not compatible) drive.

I don't know anything about larger Zip drives but Syquest makes the
EZFlyer 230MB which is compatible with the EZFlyer 135. I got one for
Christmas and love it. I _believe_ it's a bit faster than the Zip.

The EZFlyer data sheet is at http://www.syquest.com/products/d_ezflyer.html
in case anybody is interested.

- Jim

-- 
James E. Carpenter                               E-Mail: jimc@zach1.tiac.net
6 Munroe Drive
Plainville, MA  02762-1108                     ICBM: 42 00' 15"N 71 20' 00"W
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