« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2005, 08:13:42 AM »
masterchief
Andrew Eddie
Development Workgroup
Sr. Member
Ken here's the summarised long answer then.
SEF, Itemid, menu and pathway issues all get solved with what we have coined Node
Based Schema (NBS). It a way of representing heirarchial data of meta objects
and then you attach the object specific data in some way. It means that you
can know where an object fits in without knowing exactly about the object.
Converting to this will take some time and we need to determine the best time to
integrate this into the core, balancing all the usual things like backward compt.
etc. I honestly don't know if there is a middle ground but we are looking
into it, but it's not going to be solved overnight. Would I be happy to have
SEF Advance put in the core tonight for free? Probably not, because it does
not solve the root cause of why the problem with Itemid exsits.
In Joomla! 1.1 SEF support will be moving to a Mambot so you can roll your own free
or commercial version and charge as little or as much as you like for it.
Re the Title Alias field. It's a common technique used in many a blogging
application. Anyone is welcome to use it and then next schema change will
probably mean that all tables will have it. I have actually seen other SEF
components that duplicate it's effect instead of using it directly. There
are also a number of 'sleeping' fields in the schema. I can think of a least
two others. There are a number of fields that were put in around 4.5.0 time
that didn't get properly used until a later versions.
Re integrity...just because you disagree vehemently with my stance doesn't mean
I lack integrity. It just means you disagree, albeit very passionately.
It would follow from your reasoning that any commercial component, module, template
or mambot that I or any other member of the team produced would be subject to that
same call to make it free in the core... On that basis I could never do anything
to profit from my involvement in Joomla! Isn't it the exact opposite?
The more commercial support Joomla! get's the more seriously business and government
will take it as a viable enterprise solution because they have someone to call if
it breaks.
Ken, the changes we are looking at making will likely make Emir's advance component
obselete overnight. Do I hear him objecting? Of course not. Will
he be integral in its design? Most certainly. So what is the real issue
here.
Re Emir...he is not around at the moment for a personal reasons. Those close
to him know why.
The final result is that it's on the table and we are going to work on it.
But right now I would really prefer to give priority to making Joomla! sites literally
readable to blind people than to placate those who can't fork out a few bucks for
pretty url's.
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2005, 05:29:49 AM »
kenmcdQuote from: masterchief on September 22, 2005, 09:08:49 PM
Ken you make two good but dialmetrically opposed comments:
> Reality - this will not be fixed until there is a complete restructuring of Joomla.
> Reality - many people need to deal with this NOW.
Complete restructuring of Joomla cannot happen soon enough to be available 'now'.
The point is, a scalable SEF solution is only possible with a restructing of core
information. While there are a few free and commercial offerings, *all* are
being let down by the way the core has been structured and it's only of the remaining
legacies of the orginial Mambo 4.0 we have to content with.
I must emphasise that it is a priority, but that 'top' priority spot is also shared
with many other competing interests. We are revising in detail the roadmap
for 1.1 and a few of the dev team will be able to meet in London in a few weeks.
So no doubt there will be a few heavy php and db schema discussions going well into
the night around the bar and diagrams drawn on napkins...and yes, SEF is on the
agenda to be looked at but it is one among many BIG issues that need to be attended
to.
I can also assure you that nobody on my team 'rigs' the core code for their commercial
advantage. There has never been a time were I have asked for a feature to
be included and one of my team has said 'no' because that would affect the sale
of their commercial solution. It's often times the exact reverse where small
tweaks done on commercial jobs are fed back into the core so that everyone benefits.
I certainly do not hold the opinion that Emir in an way holds back the core by not
including his commercial solutions. I've never asked him to and I don't really
see the need. In my view it's the other way around, the core is holding him
back from doing some really creative things. When we do start improving the
core though, Emir will be right up there with us designing a better system from
which "everyone" can benefit.
Reality - Fixing it (or improving it) permanently and working with the current code
limitations NOW are not diametrically opposed.
If that were true, that would mean they are mutually exclusive - I do not find that
to be true.
Yes, the underlying structure could make advanced SEF much easier and more efficient.
Does that mean better solutions or more open solutions do not exist? - No.
Frankly I am disappointed you are here defending this situation.
Everything else I have seen points to your high integrity and incredible selflessness.
In the accounting profession, I was held to the highest standard - "independent
in appearance as well as in fact."
Third-party endorsements of my integrity did not count.
"Beyond reproach" was the goal.
I am just another moron joomla user looking thru the smoke and mirrors.
As I dig more, as I learn more, I am more and more alarmed.
My latest find . . . from here:
http://help.mamboserver.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=263&Itemid=1
Title Alias: This field is not used by core. SEF scripts and dynamic title/meta
scripts use it and it may have a future use.
Almost nothing in the forums or any where else about this field.
What caused me to start investigating this field? - it is used in advanced SEF components.
Isn't that just amazing? - a field included in the core, but "not used by the core."
Appears to me it was probably added to the core to support a particular SEF advanced
component.
Lots of posts asking what it is in the old forum. Surprise, surprise, no answers.
Along with the SEF "hooks" in the core . . .
Barf.
To the Joomla User Community - there will be an advanced SEF component available
for Joomla 1.0/Mambo 4.5.2.x in both a component with additional features and in
a core hack regardless if there is any help from certain core members.
Want to make me a believer? - have Emir start showing up at discussions regarding
workarounds for limitations in the Itemid system in the current Joomla. All the
Itemid issues must have been addressed and solved in SEF Advance. How else could
it work reliably?
Emir (and other core members) the discussion on this problem is currently centered
here:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,4259.0.html
Please log-in and contribute to the discussion and the solutions.
Any SEF component will have to deal with all the Itemid problems - please share
the KNOWN solutions.
Is everyone on the planet just unbelievably stupid, including me, or is this a problem
which needs to be addressed?
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« Reply #83 on: September 22, 2005, 09:08:49 PM »
masterchiefKen you make two good but dialmetrically opposed comments:
> Reality - this will not be fixed until there is a complete restructuring of Joomla.
> Reality - many people need to deal with this NOW.
Complete restructuring of Joomla cannot happen soon enough to be available 'now'.
The point is, a scalable SEF solution is only possible with a restructing of core
information. While there are a few free and commercial offerings, *all* are
being let down by the way the core has been structured and it's only of the remaining
legacies of the orginial Mambo 4.0 we have to content with.
I must emphasise that it is a priority, but that 'top' priority spot is also shared
with many other competing interests. We are revising in detail the roadmap
for 1.1 and a few of the dev team will be able to meet in London in a few weeks.
So no doubt there will be a few heavy php and db schema discussions going well into
the night around the bar and diagrams drawn on napkins...and yes, SEF is on the
agenda to be looked at but it is one among many BIG issues that need to be attended
to.
I can also assure you that nobody on my team 'rigs' the core code for their commercial
advantage. There has never been a time were I have asked for a feature to
be included and one of my team has said 'no' because that would affect the sale
of their commercial solution. It's often times the exact reverse where small
tweaks done on commercial jobs are fed back into the core so that everyone benefits.
I certainly do not hold the opinion that Emir in an way holds back the core by not
including his commercial solutions. I've never asked him to and I don't really
see the need. In my view it's the other way around, the core is holding him
back from doing some really creative things. When we do start improving the
core though, Emir will be right up there with us designing a better system from
which "everyone" can benefit.
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« Reply #79 on: September 21, 2005, 01:37:48 AM »
kenmcdFirst - Jommla is an absolutely wonderful CMS.
I am here because it is an incredible piece of work. WOW. WOW. WOW!!!!
Reality - Joomla creates multiple links/URLs for one content item.
Reality - this will not be fixed until there is a complete restructuring of Joomla.
Reality - many people need to deal with this NOW.
Work-arounds are needed now.
Some of this may be done in an advanced SEF component.
Some core members are the people most able to describe the issues, and the work-arounds.
Some core members have already solved these problems in their commercial components.
For this reason, it is not discussed.
Prove me wrong.
I am a moron, please show the world with the documented fixes/work-arounds for all
of the ItemID issues.
Obviously I am of limited mental resources, please explain to me and the rest of
the planet what the issues are and how to work-around them with the tools available
to the average Joomla user.
Thank you.
Regards from another clueless Joomla user and rabble-rouser,
KenDohg
(my old sailboat racing nic)
(while the rest of the people were safely sitting down, the bowman and I were gibing
the spinnaker)
« Reply #78 on: September 21, 2005, 01:01:59 AM »
DocMartinFurther to complaints re built-in SEF, here's extract of a post on webmasterworld:
Quote
The biggest problem I encountered with mambo was with the original SEF & non-SEF dynamic urls. You could end up with a content page having 4 or 5 different urls, depending on how you get to that page. As you can imagine, the result is one huge "duplicate content" mess.
Mentions Xaneon can fix this, so too SEF Advance.Reply #77 Omitted
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« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2005, 09:09:04 AM »
SakaQuote from: Predator on September 16, 2005, 08:21:05 AM
But why not give the people the choice from the Core
For a simple reason that the core team would be overloaded by support queries and bug reports from hundreds of thousands of unhappy users. We would end up spending the resources on something that can't be solved or supported properly because of the current core structure.Reply #72 Omitted
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« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2005, 08:21:05 AM »
PredatorQuote from: Saka on September 16, 2005, 07:38:43 AM
Forcing SEF URLs on the current structure leads to an interim
patch solution, hard to maintain with open issues that just can't be solved (and
that's exactly what SEF advance is).
That's why built-in SEF does the best job as it is today. It requires no maintenance,
following the structure logic and have you heard anyone complaining about bugs in
it?
So if you need better looking URLs you always have a choice of installing one of
the 3rd party addons. No matter which component you choose it will increase the
load, create bugs and open many issues. Some people can live with that, others not.
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« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2005, 07:38:43 AM »
SakaTo redefine what has previously been missinterpreted, I am not saying restructuring
the database must happen in version 2.0 (or previously 5.0).
It may as well come earlier, maybe in 1.2, 1.5, 1.7, I don't know. Currently we
have somewhat clear roadmap only for 1.1. But NBS structure of database is planned
and at some point we will focus on that. You must understand that this is a big
job. The current database structure is still based on early 3.0.7 version of Mambo
and it's very much outdated for functionality that we have today.
Therefore we must find a new, optimal structure that will allow for infinite category
levels, get rid of Itemid and open path for better SEF URLs. This will involve massive
core changes and probably break compability with many 3rd party addons.
Forcing SEF URLs on the current structure leads to an interim patch solution, hard
to maintain with open issues that just can't be solved (and that's exactly what
SEF advance is).
That's why built-in SEF does the best job as it is today. It requires no maintenance,
following the structure logic and have you heard anyone complaining about bugs in
it?
So if you need better looking URLs you always have a choice of installing one of
the 3rd party addons. No matter which component you choose it will increase the
load, create bugs and open many issues. Some people can live with that, others not.
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