Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #86 on: September 23, 2005, 08:13:42 AM

masterchief
Andrew Eddie
Development Workgroup
Sr. Member

Ken here's the summarised long answer then.

SEF, Itemid, menu and pathway issues all get solved with what we have coined Node Based Schema (NBS).  It a way of representing heirarchial data of meta objects and then you attach the object specific data in some way.  It means that you can know where an object fits in without knowing exactly about the object.  Converting to this will take some time and we need to determine the best time to integrate this into the core, balancing all the usual things like backward compt. etc.  I honestly don't know if there is a middle ground but we are looking into it, but it's not going to be solved overnight.  Would I be happy to have SEF Advance put in the core tonight for free?  Probably not, because it does not solve the root cause of why the problem with Itemid exsits.

In Joomla! 1.1 SEF support will be moving to a Mambot so you can roll your own free or commercial version and charge as little or as much as you like for it.

Re the Title Alias field.  It's a common technique used in many a blogging application.  Anyone is welcome to use it and then next schema change will probably mean that all tables will have it.  I have actually seen other SEF components that duplicate it's effect instead of using it directly.  There are also a number of 'sleeping' fields in the schema.  I can think of a least two others.  There are a number of fields that were put in around 4.5.0 time that didn't get properly used until a later versions.

Re integrity...just because you disagree vehemently with my stance doesn't mean I lack integrity.  It just means you disagree, albeit very passionately.  It would follow from your reasoning that any commercial component, module, template or mambot that I or any other member of the team produced would be subject to that same call to make it free in the core...  On that basis I could never do anything to profit from my involvement in Joomla!  Isn't it the exact opposite?  The more commercial support Joomla! get's the more seriously business and government will take it as a viable enterprise solution because they have someone to call if it breaks.

Ken, the changes we are looking at making will likely make Emir's advance component obselete overnight.  Do I hear him objecting?  Of course not.  Will he be integral in its design?  Most certainly.  So what is the real issue here.

Re Emir...he is not around at the moment for a personal reasons.  Those close to him know why.

The final result is that it's on the table and we are going to work on it.  But right now I would really prefer to give priority to making Joomla! sites literally readable to blind people than to placate those who can't fork out a few bucks for pretty url's.


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #85 on: September 23, 2005, 05:29:49 AM

kenmcd
Joomla! Hero

Quote from: masterchief on September 22, 2005, 09:08:49 PM

Ken you make two good but dialmetrically opposed comments:

> Reality - this will not be fixed until there is a complete restructuring of Joomla.
> Reality - many people need to deal with this NOW.

Complete restructuring of Joomla cannot happen soon enough to be available 'now'.  The point is, a scalable SEF solution is only possible with a restructing of core information.  While there are a few free and commercial offerings, *all* are being let down by the way the core has been structured and it's only of the remaining legacies of the orginial Mambo 4.0 we have to content with.

I must emphasise that it is a priority, but that 'top' priority spot is also shared with many other competing interests.  We are revising in detail the roadmap for 1.1 and a few of the dev team will be able to meet in London in a few weeks.  So no doubt there will be a few heavy php and db schema discussions going well into the night around the bar and diagrams drawn on napkins...and yes, SEF is on the agenda to be looked at but it is one among many BIG issues that need to be attended to.

I can also assure you that nobody on my team 'rigs' the core code for their commercial advantage.  There has never been a time were I have asked for a feature to be included and one of my team has said 'no' because that would affect the sale of their commercial solution.  It's often times the exact reverse where small tweaks done on commercial jobs are fed back into the core so that everyone benefits. 

I certainly do not hold the opinion that Emir in an way holds back the core by not including his commercial solutions.  I've never asked him to and I don't really see the need.  In my view it's the other way around, the core is holding him back from doing some really creative things.  When we do start improving the core though, Emir will be right up there with us designing a better system from which "everyone" can benefit.

 
Reality - Fixing it (or improving it) permanently and working with the current code limitations NOW are not diametrically opposed.
If that were true, that would mean they are mutually exclusive - I do not find that to be true.
Yes, the underlying structure could make advanced SEF much easier and more efficient.
Does that mean better solutions or more open solutions do not exist? - No.

Frankly I am disappointed you are here defending this situation.
Everything else I have seen points to your high integrity and incredible selflessness.
In the accounting profession, I was held to the highest standard - "independent in appearance as well as in fact."
Third-party endorsements of my integrity did not count.
"Beyond reproach" was the goal.

I am just another moron joomla user looking thru the smoke and mirrors.
As I dig more, as I learn more, I am more and more alarmed.
My latest find . . . from here:
http://help.mamboserver.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=263&Itemid=1
Title Alias: This field is not used by core.  SEF scripts and dynamic title/meta scripts use it and it may have a future use.
Almost nothing in the forums or any where else about this field.
What caused me to start investigating this field? - it is used in advanced SEF components.
Isn't that just amazing? - a field included in the core, but "not used by the core."
Appears to me it was probably added to the core to support a particular SEF advanced component.
Lots of posts asking what it is in the old forum. Surprise, surprise, no answers.
Along with the SEF "hooks" in the core . . .
Barf.

To the Joomla User Community - there will be an advanced SEF component available for Joomla 1.0/Mambo 4.5.2.x in both a component with additional features and in a core hack regardless if there is any help from certain core members.

Want to make me a believer? - have Emir start showing up at discussions regarding workarounds for limitations in the Itemid system in the current Joomla. All the Itemid issues must have been addressed and solved in SEF Advance. How else could it work reliably?
Emir (and other core members) the discussion on this problem is currently centered here:
http://forum.joomla.org/index.php/topic,4259.0.html
Please log-in and contribute to the discussion and the solutions.
Any SEF component will have to deal with all the Itemid problems - please share the KNOWN solutions.


Is everyone on the planet just unbelievably stupid, including me, or is this a problem which needs to be addressed?


Reply #84 Omitted


When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #83 on: September 22, 2005, 09:08:49 PM

masterchief
Andrew Eddie
Development Workgroup
Sr. Member

Ken you make two good but dialmetrically opposed comments:

> Reality - this will not be fixed until there is a complete restructuring of Joomla.
> Reality - many people need to deal with this NOW.

Complete restructuring of Joomla cannot happen soon enough to be available 'now'.  The point is, a scalable SEF solution is only possible with a restructing of core information.  While there are a few free and commercial offerings, *all* are being let down by the way the core has been structured and it's only of the remaining legacies of the orginial Mambo 4.0 we have to content with.

I must emphasise that it is a priority, but that 'top' priority spot is also shared with many other competing interests.  We are revising in detail the roadmap for 1.1 and a few of the dev team will be able to meet in London in a few weeks.  So no doubt there will be a few heavy php and db schema discussions going well into the night around the bar and diagrams drawn on napkins...and yes, SEF is on the agenda to be looked at but it is one among many BIG issues that need to be attended to.

I can also assure you that nobody on my team 'rigs' the core code for their commercial advantage.  There has never been a time were I have asked for a feature to be included and one of my team has said 'no' because that would affect the sale of their commercial solution.  It's often times the exact reverse where small tweaks done on commercial jobs are fed back into the core so that everyone benefits. 

I certainly do not hold the opinion that Emir in an way holds back the core by not including his commercial solutions.  I've never asked him to and I don't really see the need.  In my view it's the other way around, the core is holding him back from doing some really creative things.  When we do start improving the core though, Emir will be right up there with us designing a better system from which "everyone" can benefit.


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Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #79 on: September 21, 2005, 01:37:48 AM

kenmcd
Joomla! Hero

First - Jommla is an absolutely wonderful CMS.
I am here because it is an incredible piece of work. WOW. WOW. WOW!!!!
Reality - Joomla creates multiple links/URLs for one content item.
Reality - this will not be fixed until there is a complete restructuring of Joomla.
Reality - many people need to deal with this NOW.

Work-arounds are needed now.
Some of this may be done in an advanced SEF component.
Some core members are the people most able to describe the issues, and the work-arounds.
Some core members have already solved these problems in their commercial components.
For this reason, it is not discussed.
Prove me wrong.
I am a moron, please show the world with the documented fixes/work-arounds for all of the ItemID issues.

Obviously I am of limited mental resources, please explain to me and the rest of the planet what the issues are and how to work-around them with the tools available to the average Joomla user.
Thank you.

Regards from another clueless Joomla user and rabble-rouser,

KenDohg
(my old sailboat racing nic)
(while the rest of the people were safely sitting down, the bowman and I were gibing the spinnaker)


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #78 on: September 21, 2005, 01:01:59 AM

DocMartin
New Member

Further to complaints re built-in SEF, here's extract of a post on webmasterworld:

Quote

The biggest problem I encountered with mambo was with the original SEF & non-SEF dynamic urls. You could end up with a content page having 4 or 5 different urls, depending on how you get to that page. As you can imagine, the result is one huge "duplicate content" mess.

Mentions Xaneon can fix this, so too SEF Advance.

But, should people have to pay or use a free third party component to fix a problem that Mambo (and now Joomla, till revised) creates?

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Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #73 on: September 16, 2005, 09:09:04 AM

Saka
Development Workgroup
Full Member

Quote from: Predator on September 16, 2005, 08:21:05 AM

But why not give the people the choice from the Core

For a simple reason that the core team would be overloaded by support queries and bug reports from hundreds of thousands of unhappy users. We would end up spending the resources on something that can't be solved or supported properly because of the current core structure.

And I think core team resources are better spent on something all can benefit from. This way the support load ends up on 3rd party developer, not on the core team.

Instead the way forward is restructure the whole scheme and implement new SEF in core properly based on the new structure.

Anyway this is just my opinion, also the reason why I haven't integrated SEF advance in core 2 years ago.
But if the rest of the team thinks it's productive to integrate whatever 3rd party SEF that currently exists in core right now, I am fine with that.

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Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #69 on: September 16, 2005, 08:21:05 AM

Predator
Development Workgroup
Joomla! Hero

Quote from: Saka on September 16, 2005, 07:38:43 AM

Forcing SEF URLs on the current structure leads to an interim patch solution, hard to maintain with open issues that just can't be solved (and that's exactly what SEF advance is).
That's why built-in SEF does the best job as it is today. It requires no maintenance, following the structure logic and have you heard anyone complaining about bugs in it?

So if you need better looking URLs you always have a choice of installing one of the 3rd party addons. No matter which component you choose it will increase the load, create bugs and open many issues. Some people can live with that, others not.

Most people want better URLs for the content and sure a extra component will increase load, create bugs and open may issues, but why not give the people the choice from the Core, i have looked the last weeks in OpenSEF( Xaneon ), sef404 and an old sef component from Greg MacLellan, all these components are overloaded if you only need nice URLs for the content, so i put all this into the Core buildin SEF ( includes/sef.php ) and add the settings into the Global Configuration. Here you have now the choice to use compact mode ( is the current way of sef.php and have the choice to install an 3rd party addon) or an advanced mode.

There is also added support for sef_ext.php which i guess comes original from your SEF advanced ( Xaneon supports also this but in a different location ) if i`m honest i prefer the component/com_component/sef_ext.php way makes it for my "hack" independent, means you can use this files but don`t need the SEF component ( which ever ).

And at least it needs less resources than one of the 3rd party components and it is free..

You can see it currently working on http://www.joomladeveloping.org/

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Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #67 on: September 16, 2005, 07:38:43 AM

Saka
Development Workgroup
Full Member

To redefine what has previously been missinterpreted, I am not saying restructuring the database must happen in version 2.0 (or previously 5.0).
It may as well come earlier, maybe in 1.2, 1.5, 1.7, I don't know. Currently we have somewhat clear roadmap only for 1.1. But NBS structure of database is planned and at some point we will focus on that. You must understand that this is a big job. The current database structure is still based on early 3.0.7 version of Mambo and it's very much outdated for functionality that we have today.
Therefore we must find a new, optimal structure that will allow for infinite category levels, get rid of Itemid and open path for better SEF URLs. This will involve massive core changes and probably break compability with many 3rd party addons.

Forcing SEF URLs on the current structure leads to an interim patch solution, hard to maintain with open issues that just can't be solved (and that's exactly what SEF advance is).
That's why built-in SEF does the best job as it is today. It requires no maintenance, following the structure logic and have you heard anyone complaining about bugs in it?

So if you need better looking URLs you always have a choice of installing one of the 3rd party addons. No matter which component you choose it will increase the load, create bugs and open many issues. Some people can live with that, others not.


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