Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #23 on: August 23, 2005, 06:04:16 PM

Saka
Development Workgroup
Full Member

Malibu: I understand that some people without enough knowledge about Mambo and it's history may perceive a "conflict of interest". That's why I explained this many, many times on the old forums but people are obviously too lazy to do a search.

In the team we have accepted the policy that our only objective must be to do things that are for the good for the project as a whole and that prevents conflict with anyones personal aims.

Regarding the database restructure it was planned for version 5.0. Right now nobody can't give you the exact date, especially not after recent happenings.


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Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #21 on: August 23, 2005, 05:23:37 PM

malibu
New Member

Yes!  That's what I'm talking about!  Open, honest communication!!

The only thing you missed Saka, is TIMING!?  When will the database be updated to the point where a proper SEF solution can be implemented with the core?

I HAD read some of the old threads which pointed to some misunderstandings, and questioning of motives.  And you seem to be conscious of the potential for people to perceive a "conflict of interest" for Core Developers.  I cannot speak for others, but while your answer satisfies me... I think this is a matter that the Core Dev team needs to consider taking a 'position' on for the community as a whole.

I understand much better now.  In order to implement a solution which will not negatively impact the performance of the core CMS, a database restructure is required.  BTW... open source dbase restructures can be PAINFUL... ouch.  So, just let me know when this NECESSARY advancement is slated to take place, and I'll get my shots from the nurse.


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #20 on: August 23, 2005, 04:29:22 PM

Saka
Development Workgroup
Full Member

This has already been raised and discussed many times on the old forum.
As this is the new forum I will copy the respond again here.

It's not true that better SEF is not being adding to the core because someone is selling it. The reason why SEF advance type of SEF isn't part of core is really technical.
Firstly it makes too many query calls to database which increases the load pretty much.
Standard, built-in SEF that I also made doesn't make a single additional database call which makes it very quick.
Besides it is following the content structure and that's why it almost doesn't require any maintenance at all. Having more advanced SEF in core on the current database structure and having thousands of users would create all kind of problems and issues which will just lead to patching without ground solution.
SEF advance is not clean and solid bugfree solution and requires me to activly support my clients every day. This is something that I would not be able to do if I had thousands of users.

Of course we are planning to change the database structure soon which will allow for better integration of more powerful SEF (going to NBS and infinite level of categories).
Don't think that I, as core developer, am holding back core in order to make cash (like some evil souls here have suggested). Anyone in the team is free to code whatever the community want.
There is no conflict of interest there. I made SEF in Mambo in the first place and I would have included SEF advance at that time if I felt that it is a solid solution for core.
If you or anyone else can make a solid, fully functional, bug free SEF code with low maintenance grade on the current DB we would be happy to include it in core today.
But believe me at this point it is impossible to make a clean SEF code before restructuring the database.

I would also like to poit out that there are plenty of other, free SEF components you can use in the meantime. Some will work better, some worse and neither will work perfectly until DB is restructured.


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #19 on: August 23, 2005, 03:09:50 PM

iainshaw
Sr. Member

Gosh this is a tricky one

I support anyone's right to make money out of added-value services for Mambo. I use SEF Advance and I'd like to see better SEF in the core product.

How to resolve this?  The only obvious way is rather dramatic


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #18 on: August 23, 2005, 02:53:33 PM

kenmcd
Joomla! Hero

To clarify, I see absolutely nothing wrong with anyone associated with Mambo/OSM, including the core team, running a consulting business.
It makes perfect sense.
And there is no conflict of interest by doing this.

The conflict I see is when something is obviously not being adding to the core because someone is selling it.
That is a conflict of interest.
And not good for the users as a whole.

If every core developer started selling the high-demand components, where would we be?


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #17 on: August 23, 2005, 05:20:25 AM

QuickSync
Jr. Member

Nice points there Ken...

And to think I would least expect that to come from you.

Here's more... before the announcement of the $ambo Foundation, MamboDev which is owned by a member of the Core Dev Team, phoenixed into JamboWorks which is now being run by at least five of the Core Dev Team members themselves (See "About Us" page of OSM).  I don't see any conflict of interest here, but hey, is there anything that the community should know that we are not aware of regarding the real score in the Dev Teams' "walkout" from Miro's control?


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #16 on: August 23, 2005, 03:56:00 AM

kenmcd
Joomla! Hero

The same person coding the SEF in the core is selling the Advanced SEF.
How can this not be a conflict of interest?

With all the very strong and very vocal opposition to the commercialization of Mambo it seems rather odd to not point out the obvious.
This conflict of interest was pointed out previously in the Mambo forum - no response.
It needs to be discussed.
As you said, open and honest civilized discussion.

There are many, many, many posts in the Mambo forum (and now continuing here) requesting improvements to the SEF component. The demand for this is huge.

This is why someone is selling a lot of components, and probably making a very good profit on their work.
This person is also on the Core Developer team.
This is why the core SEF component has not been improved in spite of the huge demand.

Nothing wrong with writing and selling commercial components.
But you should not also be on the Core Development team.
One or the other.

The conflict of interest issue is a major criticism of the Miro / Mambo Foundation relationship.
No one wants Miro controlling the core and using that control to make a profit.

The Core Developer team controls the code and what gets added, or not added.

How is that any different?


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #15 on: August 22, 2005, 08:55:50 PM

malibu
New Member

Quote from: kenmcd on August 22, 2005, 06:59:22 PM

Nothing new will make it into the core until a core developer is no longer profiting from a working product - a commercial product.
...
This is an obvious conflict of interest.
And the obvious reason why a more powerful SEF component is not included in the core.

Yeah... that's kinda what I gathered from my research.  Guess I did step in it!

I guess I'm conflicted about what to think about it.  I'm all for someone being able to make a buck from a good, quality, product.  But when there is a basic functionality (solid SEF URL's) missing from a fantastic product like this... I guess I don't understand.  I'd pay for a Paypal IPN module, or something that meets a business need that's specific; but if this is something that is holding OSM back from fixing a obvious shortcoming of the CMS--I would have to agree with your assessment, Ken.  If the individual in question isn't willing to develop the core in this area, that's his choice.  But I would task the Dev. Team with the responsibility of finding someone else to do it.

I'm sorry, not trying to bring controversy.  But I think given the sting of current history, and the betrayal of hidden intentions... now is a time when we can help ourselves by being open and honest.
Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #14 on: August 22, 2005, 06:59:22 PM

kenmcd
Joomla! Hero

Nothing new will make it into the core until a core developer is no longer profiting from a working product - a commercial product.

You may notice in the 4.5.3 CVS changelog the same developer has made some changes to the SEF already included. Apparently since this is his expertise, he is the one assigned to this component.

This is an obvious conflict of interest.
And the obvious reason why a more powerful SEF component is not included in the core.


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #13 on: August 22, 2005, 06:30:45 PM

keliix06
Sr. Member

You can also check out http://www.xaneon.com/. Not sure when something more robust will make it into the core.


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Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #8 on: August 21, 2005, 07:32:18 PM

guilliam
Forum Workgroup
Joomla! Hero

"...and I should just be quiet now?" -dan

hmmmnn.. i dont see shuting up resolves any issues. at any rate, pls check the URL given below.. that maybe the solution you were looking for to address the concern of this thread.

http://www.sakic.net/scripting/mambo/sef_advance/

its the url i wasnt able to post in my prior reply. check the skype.com site that used the component..

i see the point in the integration of this matter in the core too! and obviously it will greatly help the CMS in so many facets... otherwise,.. this step will be putting other TPD's out of business in the SEF/SEO side of the story. BUT indeed it will be for the greatest concern IF leaning on the ~community~ perspective.

guilliam


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #7 on: August 21, 2005, 01:45:57 PM

malibu
New Member

Okay... now that I'm slightly MORE read up on this, I guess I need to append my question:

At what point in the developmental level will ***** CMS have a much more 'robust', stronger, more aesthetically pleasing SEO/SEF system.  To my untrained (in the world of SEO) noodle, I would think this would be critical to any CMS.  Dynamic sites must crawl incredibly well for ranking on Search Engines... if a site won't rank well, it'll never get traffic.  I can think of one ecommerce site owner who went back to static pages for his site and put himself at the Google Top 3 for several major web searches for his store.

Or am I unknowingly jumping into a political issue with 3PD's and I should just be quiet now?


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #6 on: August 21, 2005, 01:00:15 AM

guilliam
Forum Workgroup
Joomla! Hero

hello @malibu,

i believe it SHOULD crawl better.. IF I AM A SEARCH ENGINE i would prefer reading:

yoursite.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

compared to:

yoursite.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

IF I AM A SEARCH ENGINE, i'll surely hate rading that "?" after the .php and the ampersands in betweens..

IF I AM A SEARCH ENGINE, i'll surely love reading:

yoursite.com/yousites_home_page.html

^^that is how the advance SEF component works (sakic)

UNFORTUANTELY, im ONLY human,.. IM NOT A SEARCH ENGINE.. so i cannot 100 percent guarantee what a search engine REALLY loves to read/crawl. but based on users feedback ... the Advance SEF really works and gets better results.

guilliam

btw.. anyone really thought IM A SEARCH ENGINE? wow cool that! serch engine bot that can even write and post in OSM.. ahihihihi!

ditto


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Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #3 on: August 19, 2005, 04:35:18 PM

tjay
Full Member

Not that I can see, I use it on all my sites even one done with phpshop.
The only problem I ever had was with SMF forum, but even that might be fixed now as I have not stayed current with it.
My most challenging site was using a secure server https / SEO names / SEF all on one site
works great. Just have to turn it on and change htaccess.txt file to .htaccess
There are some server settings that could mess it up, mod rewrite I think


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #2 on: August 19, 2005, 04:21:54 PM

malibu
New Member

Good question Tjay:  when I first started migrating over, I read some posts pointing out problems with turning on the SEO--so I shied away from turning them on.  I thought that was the reason the 3PD solution came about...

If I can be educated; is there any problem with the built-in SEO, or the dynamic page titles?


Re: When will SEO be integrated?

Reply #1 on: August 19, 2005, 04:11:41 PM

tjay
Full Member

SEO at least page names and SEF are in the 4.5.2 is it turned on in your config?


When will SEO be integrated?

on: August 19, 2005, 03:58:16 PM

malibu
New Member

At what level of release does the master plan say SEO will be integrated into the CORE?

I just had a heart attack when I realized the two sites I'd converted to Mamb* over the last 6 months had both fallen off page one for their Google searches...